RF tethering - reasons, risks, benefits? (Split from "Has Anyone Bought a TruFit yet")

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

This thread is a split off from the prior thread of if anyone has bought a true-fit. It went far enough off topic about the +/- of rf tethering that I separated that discussion from the original post.

*raises hand and claims responsibility for taking it so drastically off course in the first place.

All of the threads were just moved as is, with the exception of my editing this first post a bit so that people aren't confused when they come across this thread that seems to start mid-discussion.

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Compass is very strongly against rf tethering and they will not allow rf tethering. I don't know if they tested it that way or not... Maybe if you do a search for compass and tethering you'll come across the more detailed post?

FWIW, I would not rule out a seat based on whether or not it can be tethered rf'ing. If a seat has a rf'ing tether, sure, by all means use it whenever possible. But seat selection, IMO, should not be determined primarily by whether or not it can be tethered rf'ing. The truth of the matter is this - and I'm probably sounding like a broken record for those of you who've heard me say this before,

Seats that allow rf tethering pass testing both with and without the tether in use. There is no data showing that tethering rf'ing provides added protection to a child. We like to think it makes sense and adds stability, but the crash statistics just aren't there. If they were, we'd see a trend one direction or the other.

If it's any difference, I've heard that Dave - the engineer behind the Radian, worked for Britax before he started doing his own engineering & design of the Radian. If this is the case, it could explain why the Radian is the only other seat aside from Britax seats that allows rf tethering.

Recaro is also against rf tethering, so it does make you wonder if they know something that we don't. :shrug-shoulders:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think rf tethering is unsafe - and I do it with my own rf'ing seats when they allow rf tethering. I just don't think that it's a factor likely to change outcome in a crash - if it was there'd be more proof of the benefit of them and not just speculation.

I have 3 convertible seats - 2 of them can be tethered rf'ing, and one of them can't be. My ds is rf'ing in the EFTA which can't be tethered rf'ing. And I have no second thoughts or worries about him not being tethered.

I just honestly think there are so many factors to consider when choosing a seat, and I'm not convinced that rf tethering should be one of those factors. :twocents:

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

snowbird25ca said:

I just honestly think there are so many factors to consider when choosing a seat, and I'm not convinced that rf tethering should be one of those factors. :twocents:

Click to expand...

You may not know my views on why I want to rear tether yet (as I'm new here and have only posted about it briefly in very few threads), but my reasoning is NOT for protection of the child in the RF restraint (although if it helps them, that's cool with me!), but rather for my child, no longer in any form of restraint, sitting next to them. I watched the NHTSA side impact crash videos, and the seats do a wild flip into the seat beside them. This means my non-restraint child is getting whacked with some serious force from at least 50 pounds of toddler/seat (and as she grows, more weight obviously). I realized that my non-restraint child is also moving the same direction as the seat, but eventually she can't go anywhere once she hits the door, and that seat is still travelling towards her with great force.

That RF tether has got to limit some movement of the seat and slow it down a bit, which I want, as I'd hate for my non-restraint child to be killed by her little sister's car seat. If my older child was still in a child restraint, I wouldn't be making a RF tether a criteria for the baby's seat. But since she doesn't have the protection of a child restraint, a RF tether is one of my criteria, for her protection.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

You may not know my views on why I want to rear tether yet (as I'm new here and have only posted about it briefly in very few threads), but my reasoning is NOT for protection of the child in the RF restraint (although if it helps them, that's cool with me!), but rather for my unrestrained child sitting next to them. I watched the NHTSA side impact crash videos, and the seats do a wild flip into the seat beside them. This means my unrestrained child is getting whacked with some serious force from at least 50 pounds of toddler/seat (and as she grows, more weight obviously). I realized that my unrestrained child is also moving the same direction as the seat, but eventually she can't go anywhere once she hits the door, and that seat is still travelling towards her with great force.

That RF tether has got to limit some movement of the seat and slow it down a bit, which I want, as I'd hate for my unrestrained child to be killed by her little sister's car seat. If my older child was still in a child restraint, I wouldn't be making a RF tether a criteria for the baby's seat. But since she doesn't have the protection of a child restraint, a RF tether is one of my criteria, for her protection.

Click to expand...

I'm confused... unrestrained child or unharnessed child (or child not in a car seat). Wouldn't an unrestrained child just be sitting in a seat with no belt?

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

tl01 said:

I'm confused... unrestrained child or unharnessed child (or child not in a car seat). Wouldn't an unrestrained child just be sitting in a seat with no belt?

Click to expand...

I am meaning "unrestrained" as "not in any form of child restraint". Sorry for the confusion. I didn't want to use unharnessed because she's more than just unharnessed, as she is also not in a booster. I'll try and come up with a better word and edit my post.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

I am meaning "unrestrained" as "not in any form of child restraint". Sorry for the confusion. I didn't want to use unharnessed because she's more than just unharnessed, as she is also not in a booster. I'll try and come up with a better word and edit my post.

Click to expand...

I see... when I think of unrestrained I think of a child w/o anything holding them into the car.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

tl01 said:

I see... when I think of unrestrained I think of a child w/o anything holding them into the car.

Click to expand...

I edited it to "non-restraint", meaning "not in a child restraint". Hopefully it makes more sense now, I can see where the confusion came in.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

You may not know my views on why I want to rear tether yet (as I'm new here and have only posted about it briefly in very few threads), but my reasoning is NOT for protection of the child in the RF restraint (although if it helps them, that's cool with me!), but rather for my child, no longer in any form of restraint, sitting next to them. I watched the NHTSA side impact crash videos, and the seats do a wild flip into the seat beside them. This means my non-restraint child is getting whacked with some serious force from at least 50 pounds of toddler/seat (and as she grows, more weight obviously). I realized that my non-restraint child is also moving the same direction as the seat, but eventually she can't go anywhere once she hits the door, and that seat is still travelling towards her with great force.

That RF tether has got to limit some movement of the seat and slow it down a bit, which I want, as I'd hate for my non-restraint child to be killed by her little sister's car seat. If my older child was still in a child restraint, I wouldn't be making a RF tether a criteria for the baby's seat. But since she doesn't have the protection of a child restraint, a RF tether is one of my criteria, for her protection.

Click to expand...

And now I just watched a video with a Britax seat that was tether RF and the child's head comes out of the seat during the crash! I haven't seen this happen when watching crash test videos of non-tether RF seats. So, now I have to do some more research on it before I decide on a seat! I really wish there was a definitive answer as right now I am feeling like I have to choose one of my children's safety over the other.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

And now I just watched a video with a Britax seat that was tether RF and the child's head comes out of the seat during the crash!

Click to expand...

Can you link to the video? Or tell me where/what it is?

Thanks!

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

You may not know my views on why I want to rear tether yet (as I'm new here and have only posted about it briefly in very few threads), but my reasoning is NOT for protection of the child in the RF restraint (although if it helps them, that's cool with me!), but rather for my child, no longer in any form of restraint, sitting next to them. I watched the NHTSA side impact crash videos, and the seats do a wild flip into the seat beside them. This means my non-restraint child is getting whacked with some serious force from at least 50 pounds of toddler/seat (and as she grows, more weight obviously). I realized that my non-restraint child is also moving the same direction as the seat, but eventually she can't go anywhere once she hits the door, and that seat is still travelling towards her with great force.

That RF tether has got to limit some movement of the seat and slow it down a bit, which I want, as I'd hate for my non-restraint child to be killed by her little sister's car seat. If my older child was still in a child restraint, I wouldn't be making a RF tether a criteria for the baby's seat. But since she doesn't have the protection of a child restraint, a RF tether is one of my criteria, for her protection.

Click to expand...

I also chose a seat that could tether RF for this reason. But the child next to my baby is in a restraint. She's in a Radian 65, but it's not a bubble around her, and I feel like if there was an accident where my baby's seat went flying in her sister's direction, there's a chance my 2 yr old could get hurt by her baby sister's seat. So I chose the tether for the same reasons as you, but even with another carseat being used.

And as for info on rf tether, I've seen in another thread a link to studies done that said that it slightly increased the head excursion of the rfing child, but not enough to cause injury. (And that of course, the head excursion becomes less dangerous the older the rfing child is). I have no idea what thread it was in, though. Sorry.

-Ann

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

kphil said:

Can you link to the video? Or tell me where/what it is?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I am off to be right now and just saw this. I will get you the link in the a.m. (have to track down where it is).

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

kphil said:

Can you link to the video? Or tell me where/what it is?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

It was this one
http://www.esnips.com/doc/f7c18149-9f4a-4e32-b0be-e366982367fc/swedish

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

I noticed that video, too. The child's head does move forward quite a bit once the rf tether stops the seat. I feel more comfortable with the other video showing that the child's whole body stays in the seat upon rebound. Seems to put much less stress on the child's neck. I'll have to look into that more.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

THanks for linking to the video. Hmm...that is interesting food for thought. I wonder what difference a really tight rf tether vs a looser tether would make. I'm also trying to tell in the video if the child's head is flying forward before the tether has stopped rebound motion of the seat--it almost looks that way to me, in which case, the tether might not have anything to do with it. I can see how it would, though. My kids have all been tethered rf, and my youngest currently is. His sister next to him is in a Blvd, which I do feel would afford her some extra protection from his seat contacting her. We're switching seats soon though (he's about to hit the rf height limit of his RA), and I'm trying to decide what to get.

Kirsten

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

And now I just watched a video with a Britax seat that was tether RF and the child's head comes out of the seat during the crash! I haven't seen this happen when watching crash test videos of non-tether RF seats. So, now I have to do some more research on it before I decide on a seat! I really wish there was a definitive answer as right now I am feeling like I have to choose one of my children's safety over the other.

Click to expand...

do you have a link to crash videos where the non-tethered RF seat whips around violently from side to side (or just to one side, i may have misread your first post about this issue)? i'm confused, as to how any carseat could possibly move around enough for you to be concerned about someone sitting next to it and still pass crash testing. was the video showing the results of inproper installation, maybe? i could see if a locking clip or lock offs weren't used properly, or if the seatbelt was otherwise holding the carseat incorrectly, that the movement would be severe enough to warrant concern, but i'm not convinced that the force of an impact alone would jostle a carseat so much. i'm sorry if i sound so full of disbelief but i guess i'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this because i don't understand how this would be considered safe enough to pass current safety standards.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

indigoblossom said:

do you have a link to crash videos where the non-tethered RF seat whips around violently from side to side (or just to one side, i may have misread your first post about this issue)? i'm confused, as to how any carseat could possibly move around enough for you to be concerned about someone sitting next to it and still pass crash testing. was the video showing the results of inproper installation, maybe? i could see if a locking clip or lock offs weren't used properly, or if the seatbelt was otherwise holding the carseat incorrectly, that the movement would be severe enough to warrant concern, but i'm not convinced that the force of an impact alone would jostle a carseat so much. i'm sorry if i sound so full of disbelief but i guess i'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this because i don't understand how this would be considered safe enough to pass current safety standards.

Click to expand...

This is the video of a side impact crash test NHTSA released of the SS1 infant seat. This is exactly what the seat is supposed to do in a crash:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/nhtsa-crash-test-of-graco-safety-seat-child-seat/3948001058

I wouldn't wanna be seating next to it...

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

minismom said:

This is the video of a side impact crash test NHTSA released of the SS1 infant seat. This is exactly what the seat is supposed to do in a crash:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/nhtsa-crash-test-of-graco-safety-seat-child-seat/3948001058

I wouldn't wanna be seating next to it...

Click to expand...

It's also a 35mph crash though - probably not the most likely in real world experience. Side impact may be the most deadly, but I'm still not convinced that a child is more likely to be hurt by a carseat rebounding in that manner than they are to be by hitting the door... The degree of rebound is going to vary substantially by the vehicle seat cushions, angle of impact, and speed of impact.

My honest opinion is that the debate is more academic than anything and that real world crashes passengers being squished and killed by a rebounding rf'ing seat is an extremely rare occurence - if it even does happen in the case of properly restrained carseats & passengers. My hypothesis is that in many crashes of that nature, the damage to the vehicle would be severe enough that it may not be survivable...

Just my :twocents:

My ds will be having surgery in April and I'll have to sit in the backseat with him on the way home. We'll be moving his seat to the center so that I can be next to him and still have headrest support - so that will put me in the position of being between him in his EFTA and the door/side impact airbags. I can't say that it's something that really concerns me. But I will admit to being more history based than theoretically based when it comes to worrying about some things. At this point the concern is really theoretical in nature. :twocents:

(Not to minimize those who do worry about this, just saying that I don't think it's something we should all go out and panic over.)

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

snowbird25ca said:

It's also a 35mph crash though - probably not the most likely in real world experience.

Click to expand...

Do you really think so? I think the opposite and that's it very likely! 35 mph is only 56 km/hr. I don't know how many times I've been in the intersection making a left turn, and the traffic coming towards me is travelling between 50-80 km/hr. If I were to make an error and continue my turn before it was safe to do so, I could easily be hit at 56km/hr (or more!) on the passenger side. Now, hopefully the car that is going to hit me, sees me and brakes, and thus they don't hit me at as high as speed, but if they were going fast enough, the still could hit me at 56 or higher couldn't they?

Maybe I'm viewing this wrong though? It's just that I see a lot of side impact collision in intersections. Either the left turner proceeded before it was safe, or the person going straight through and was speeding so the left turner wasn't aware they didn't have enough time. The cars haven't been drivable after the accident and I always see tow trucks, police cars and an ambulance at the scene, but I also usually see the vehicle occupants there talking to the police or sitting and having an EMT check them out....so I am assuming that these people lived. BUT, I normally don't see the accident occur, so not sure if other passengers have already been taken away with more serious injuries.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

indigoblossom said:

do you have a link to crash videos where the non-tethered RF seat whips around violently from side to side (or just to one side, i may have misread your first post about this issue)? i'm confused, as to how any carseat could possibly move around enough for you to be concerned about someone sitting next to it and still pass crash testing. was the video showing the results of inproper installation, maybe? i could see if a locking clip or lock offs weren't used properly, or if the seatbelt was otherwise holding the carseat incorrectly, that the movement would be severe enough to warrant concern, but i'm not convinced that the force of an impact alone would jostle a carseat so much. i'm sorry if i sound so full of disbelief but i guess i'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this because i don't understand how this would be considered safe enough to pass current safety standards.

Click to expand...

There's been one link posted already to the SS, here's the entire list of infant seats tested by the NHTSA http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.7908a78a98232a8d304a4c4446108a0c (and they all behave the same).

And no, they weren't installed improperly, in fact, the videos are showing what happens in a side impact crash with a properly installed seat and proving that they passed federal standards.

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

technogranola said:

Do you really think so? I think the opposite and that's it very likely! 35 mph is only 56 km/hr. I don't know how many times I've been in the intersection making a left turn, and the traffic coming towards me is travelling between 50-80 km/hr. If I were to make an error and continue my turn before it was safe to do so, I could easily be hit at 56km/hr (or more!) on the passenger side. Now, hopefully the car that is going to hit me, sees me and brakes, and thus they don't hit me at as high as speed, but if they were going fast enough, the still could hit me at 56 or higher couldn't they?

Maybe I'm viewing this wrong though? It's just that I see a lot of side impact collision in intersections. Either the left turner proceeded before it was safe, or the person going straight through and was speeding so the left turner wasn't aware they didn't have enough time. The cars haven't been drivable after the accident and I always see tow trucks, police cars and an ambulance at the scene, but I also usually see the vehicle occupants there talking to the police or sitting and having an EMT check them out....so I am assuming that these people lived. BUT, I normally don't see the accident occur, so not sure if other passengers have already been taken away with more serious injuries.

Click to expand...

Yes, they could still hit you at higher km/hr. However, most collisions that take place in intersections like that involve the driver braking - there is actually not statistical info showing that one side of the vehicle is definitively safer than the other side in a crash. Some have shown slight benefit to being driver side, while I've also heard from US techs on here there has been slight benefit to being passenger side in some studies - and that the #'s are so close, IRL it's unlikely to make a difference.

It's also important to look at actual speed transferred to the occupants of the vehicle vs. initial crash speed. The frame of the vehicle - even in a side impact crash, is going to reduce the force transferred to occupants - not to the same degree since it's not a crumple zone, but there are 3 pillars on each side of every passenger vehicle that are designed to add protection in side impacts.

Sometimes crashes look really awful and people walk away. Somtimes the crashes the vehicle hardly looks damaged, and there are fatalities.

I'm not sure about in your area, but here, if you call 911 for a collision, they automatically send everyone. So I don't know... I understand that based on the damage to vehicles and the crash circumstances you've seen that this is a genuine fear. I would hedge bets though that it's a rare instance that those side impact crashes are that high of a speed or higher.

NCAP is testing structural integrity at 35mph, and it's the structural integrity of the vehicle that provides the both the greatest protection, as well as the initial protection. I'm not saying a carseat would never behave in that manner, but in your average vehicle and average side impact crash, that degree of rotation seen in the videos is likely much greater than what would typically be seen.

The new Britax seats are coming with an energy absorbing tether, so they wouldn't be held perfectly still in a crash anyways and would still rebound slightly depending on the force of the crash.

Anyways, just my :twocents:

Re: Has anyone bought a True Fit yet?

Thanks, your 2 cents is much appreciated! I love how you form your posts (they make me consider other options and I never feel attacked), don't change a thing!