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  1. #1
    Carseat Crazy jwren's Avatar
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    all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Ok bare with me here, Let's say you have a 20lb booster, then you have a 9lb booster...the 9lb has latch and the 20lb does not...you are concerned that in the event of a crash the 20lb seat might be too heavy and has no latch so you child might not be secured, so the 9lb seat with latch is safer...then you wonder well if I have a heavy 20lb booster it should have latch or tether to help keep it in...ok that all makes sense to me too... but now lets think of it this way...starting with a question....what is the seatbelt weight limit for an adult? I would imagine it can hold 300lbs or maybe more? So now for my question...why would it be a concern to use a heavy booster securing the child by seatbelt...with a small child? It would overall still weight less than the max allowed to be protected by a seatbelt, right?
    The only thing that comes to my mind is the obvious, seatbelt failure (like with KDM) or submarining? In that case would a latch or tether help, yes to the first, yes or no to the second. I am trying to picture this so correct me if I am wrong... Anyway there obviously needs to be some thorough testing done in this dept.. There are many unanswered questions... but just wanted to kind of put it out there for comments....

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  3. #2
    CPS Technician AdventureMom's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    It's not in case of seatbelt failure, but my understanding is that it's to keep the booster positioned correctly during a crash. Because it's not secured to the car, it will want to move separately from the vehicle. The LATCH will help keep it in the right place...

    DS|2002|FF in Britax Frontier 85 and Graco TurboBooster
    DD|2007|FF in two Britax Frontier 85's

  4. #3
    Senior Community Member unityco's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by jwren View Post
    ...why would it be a concern to use a heavy booster securing the child by seatbelt...with a small child? It would overall still weight less than the max allowed to be protected by a seatbelt, right?
    I don't think people are concerned about the seatbelt failing, I think they're concerned about the child being crushed against the seatbelt by the booster. In a crash your child PLUS the booster will be pressed against the seatbelt. The booster will be behind your child, pushing your child against the belt with more force than the child's body alone.

    In a very heavy booster, is that force too much? Will it cause more injury? We don't know.

    We do know a booster is safer than nothing though!

  5. #4
    Moderator MomToEliEm's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by AdventureMom View Post
    It's not in case of seatbelt failure, but my understanding is that it's to keep the booster positioned correctly during a crash. Because it's not secured to the car, it will want to move separately from the vehicle. The LATCH will help keep it in the right place...

    This is what I was thinking too with latch on boosters. I would think keeping the booster positioned upright and in place the seatbelt doesn't get all of position would be useful for the safety of the child.

    I also think latch would be good at keeping the seat in place when not in use since most people don't bother buckling up the booster when not in use. I would not want a 20 pound unsecured booster as a projectile in my car during an accident.

  6. #5
    Carseat Crazy ProudMomof5's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    See I just don't get why they don't put latch on ALL boosters... but IDK... I just need to give up on the whole idea anyway it just frustrates me.

  7. #6
    CPS Fanatic abacus2's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Isn't it possible that the booster moving with the child rather than staying behind with the LATCH anchors might keep the belt in a better position on the child?
    Liz
    Mom to:
    Rachael (11/03), Emily (8/06), and Naomi (1/09)

  8. #7
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by abacus2 View Post
    Isn't it possible that the booster moving with the child rather than staying behind with the LATCH anchors might keep the belt in a better position on the child?
    No, that's the answer we used to make up to excuse boosters not having LATCH ...the truth is it really is better for them to be LATCHed or attached (several have top tether options, too)...OR just quite lightweight so that they don't load the child. But like Unityco said, we don't KNOW if heavy boosters are actually dangerous. Europe has a history of heavy boosters...presumably they would have changed that if the heavy boosters were hurting children...

    I'm sure they all will be attachable soon enough...it just takes time for ideas to become implemented and vehicle fleets to turn over enough to make it a market standard.
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  9. #8
    CPS Technician Shanora's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    So my question in regards to LATCHing or tethering in the Boosters, is in the event of a side crash or something similar to that, would the wings not do more damage to a child's head in that type of movement, if say the seat belt took 1-2 seconds to lock in place...and the child had that 1-2 inches of extra movement and the seat WASN'T moving with the child??

    Uhh...lets see if I can explain that better. If the seat is stationary, and doesn't move (due to it being secured down), and your child's head is leaning back on the booster within the wings.....and in an accident(hit from the side) your child is tossed to the side of the seat, and his head comes out just past the wings and bounces off of them cause the seat didn't move with the child.....to cradle the head like its supposed too....wouldn't that do more damage??

    I donno if that made any sense.......

    I understand the not moving with the child in a FF crash or being rear-ended....less extra stress on the child's body......

  10. #9
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by Shanora View Post
    So my question in regards to LATCHing or tethering in the Boosters, is in the event of a side crash or something similar to that, would the wings not do more damage to a child's head in that type of movement, if say the seat belt took 1-2 seconds to lock in place...and the child had that 1-2 inches of extra movement and the seat WASN'T moving with the child??

    Uhh...lets see if I can explain that better. If the seat is stationary, and doesn't move (due to it being secured down), and your child's head is leaning back on the booster within the wings.....and in an accident(hit from the side) your child is tossed to the side of the seat, and his head comes out just past the wings and bounces off of them cause the seat didn't move with the child.....to cradle the head like its supposed too....wouldn't that do more damage??
    presumably it wouldn't do more damage because the wings redistribute energy. they flex, for one thing, and they contain energy-managing foam, which compresses. both of these things reduce the forces exerted directly on the head. also, even if the head "rolls out" of the wing, which some side impact videos do show happens, if the seat is secured in place, where else can the head go? once it rolls out of the wing there is the safety of airspace, or maybe the head will rebound back into it... but in that case there is still energy management. with a booster that is not secured, if the head rolls off the wing, it may hit a hard surface such as the door panel or window... no energy management there.
    Two girls, 7 and 6. Trek Mountain, Specialized Hotrock, Soma Buena Vista, Bike Friday tandem, and multiple other bikes. Oh, and a Mazda5.

  11. #10
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    This video is impressive showing a LATCHed booster http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_c...74_74191_9.jsp I think it would be a lot more fair if they had it next to a non LATCHed SIP booster, but nonetheless, you can see how the child moves into the headwings but stays contained, even though the booster (Evolva 2-3, not the other two...) is LATCHed in. The seatbelt locks plenty fast enough to hold the child in place, and the wings are covered with energy management foam (as spb noted) so moving INto them isn't really an issue to be contrasted to moving WITH them, if that makes sense?
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  12. #11
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    I went on to the Britax.co.uk site looking for a phrase I read several months ago about the new Booster seat that has Isofix. Discussed how it was safer in test results during side impacts because the seat remains in place. So far, I haven't found it.

    But I do like the seat Evolva 2-3

    They've revamped their website and added new stuff.

    Britax Side Impact Protection video

    I want these straps available HERE!
    Britax Safe Strap
    Pretty cool
    My Munchkin -- Nov 2008--5 years, 45.5", 42lbs
    Current Stats: 12 years old /5'5/ 115lbs/ Seatbelt

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

  13. #12
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Do you guys prefer the Clek which is a backless booster with the latch over a backless Graco Turbobooster? Does it provide more safety or just prevent the booster from becoming a projectile? Also, if anyone has the Clek, is it more comfy than the Graco?

  14. #13
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    We have and quite like the Clek... it's rather comfy and plenty easy to use and fits great. EXCEPT... I have a captain's chair slid to the middle of my van and the seatbelt doesn't fit the shoulders when they are in the clek, so we use a non-attached backless there so that the seat can slide a little toward the shoulderbelt anchor and fits the kids better. I use any backless booster, attached or not, with equal confidence in the middle position or in a car with side curtain airbags. Not the Graco... I don't love that one... the Combi Dakota is nicer, IMO, or the Cosco High Rise is more comfy for bigger kids and fits a wider weight range (I'm a backless booster snob...lots of people like the Graco, I'm too picky, and it's crummy in three-across, which I'm always buying boosters to fit into, lol).
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  15. #14
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by joolsplus3 View Post
    This video is impressive showing a LATCHed booster http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_c...74_74191_9.jsp I think it would be a lot more fair if they had it next to a non LATCHed SIP booster, but nonetheless, you can see how the child moves into the headwings but stays contained, even though the booster (Evolva 2-3, not the other two...) is LATCHed in. The seatbelt locks plenty fast enough to hold the child in place, and the wings are covered with energy management foam (as spb noted) so moving INto them isn't really an issue to be contrasted to moving WITH them, if that makes sense?
    who did that side impact test video? britax? or another party? i wonder if it's britax's own corporate side impact test or the EU ISO/DIS14646? neither would be an "official" test but i wonder which it is...
    Two girls, 7 and 6. Trek Mountain, Specialized Hotrock, Soma Buena Vista, Bike Friday tandem, and multiple other bikes. Oh, and a Mazda5.

  16. #15
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    I think it wasn't Britax... seemed to be a static side impact test, didn't it? (Britax has the car moving forward before it gets slammed from the side, their testing is even more rigorous, from what I've seen..I know you know this, just saying it for lurkers )
    Julie
    CPST since 2003, pu"R"ple since 2008, three kids growing too fast since 1997, 1999 and 2006

    Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good

  17. #16
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    i didn't know that, thanks
    Two girls, 7 and 6. Trek Mountain, Specialized Hotrock, Soma Buena Vista, Bike Friday tandem, and multiple other bikes. Oh, and a Mazda5.

  18. #17
    CPS Technician Shanora's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Hmmm....thanks for that. Ive wondered about the buckle/not buckle thing....

    As for the Clek....I've been meaning to get this for my oldest...since he is legaly allowed to ride without a seat...but I just don't feel its safe. Would you pick that over something else?? He's 8 and about 75# (with Coat and boots on)....but doesn't quite sit in a regular seat properly just yet...(his bum doesn't quite meet the back of the seat...about a 1.5 inches from it). I'm in canada...so there are limits to what I can get him I believe.

  19. #18
    Car-Seat.Org Zealot skaterbabs's Avatar
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    If he doesn't pass the 5 Step Test, then he needs a booster regardless, but I don't know which boosters are available in Canada.

    The 5 Step Test
    If you answer "No" to any of these questions, your child must be in a booster seat:
    1. Does the child sit all the way back against the auto seat?
    2. Do the child's knees bend comfortably at the edge of the auto seat?
    3. Is the lap belt touching the top of the thighs, not the tummy?
    4. Is the shoulder belt centered on the shoulder and chest?
    5. Can the child stay seated like this for the whole trip?
    Rebekah Branch, CPST from May 2005 until June 2011
    Mom to CJ (7/96, seatbelt), Gregory (4/98, seatbelt), & Joyjoy (10/03, misc. booster seats)
    "That which you create in beauty and goodness and truth lives on."
    - Denis Waitley

  20. #19
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    Quote Originally Posted by joolsplus3 View Post
    This video is impressive showing a LATCHed booster http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_c...74_74191_9.jsp I think it would be a lot more fair if they had it next to a non LATCHed SIP booster, but nonetheless, you can see how the child moves into the headwings but stays contained, even though the booster (Evolva 2-3, not the other two...) is LATCHed in. The seatbelt locks plenty fast enough to hold the child in place, and the wings are covered with energy management foam (as spb noted) so moving INto them isn't really an issue to be contrasted to moving WITH them, if that makes sense?
    Very interesting! Do you happen to know what size/age crash test dummy this was?
    Gena

  21. #20
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    Re: all this talk about heavy boosters with no latch, vs lightweight boosters..some thoughts..

    one thing that needs to be pointed out about that britax video is that we don't know *why* the britax ISOFIX booster in that video performs so well in that side impact test.

    is it because of the ISOFIX? or because of the design of the headwings? or both?

    the problem is that they compared it with another brand of booster without ISOFIX, so it wasn't a direct comparison. if they wanted to show how effective ISOFIX is at reducing side impact head injury, they should have compared the same exact booster, but with one attached by ISOFIX and the other left unattached. because i have also seen non-ISOFIX boosters perform very well in side impact tests (the parkway, for one, and some german seat with huge side wings... i think ulrikeDG has the same one, it's not sold here).
    Two girls, 7 and 6. Trek Mountain, Specialized Hotrock, Soma Buena Vista, Bike Friday tandem, and multiple other bikes. Oh, and a Mazda5.

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