Shoulder belt install causes seats to tilt

dimsumdaddy

New member
All this time, I've been using LATCH. Recently, I switched to using the regular lap/shoulder belts as I prepare for #3 to come.

I am able to get snug installs with the regular belts (no more than 1" of play at the belt location) but I'm experiencing something I've never experienced before: the shoulder strap causes the seats to tilt sideways slightly, particularly on FF seats.

I understand why this is happening. The lap and shoulder straps are fed through the back hole of the FF seat. This "hole" is usually a flat tunnel through the lower back of the seat. I feed the lap/shoulder belt through and click it to the seat belt latch, then pull the should belt all the way out until the retractor goes into the ratchet mode (or whatever it's called). First I tighten the lap to buckle, then pull the slack through the shoulder. And here's the part: the shoulder belt, which is now under tension to keep the lap tight, runs up to the top of the seat slot up and extends to the shoulder anchor pulley point of the car. This angle essentially is prying the seat into a sideways tilt.

It's not an extreme angle, just maybe like 5 degrees.

The interesting thing is the base is still firmly installed, it's just that the chair has worked it's way to this equilibrium position. The buckle side has lowered slightly, and the lap anchor side has raised slightly... and the top of the seat exaggerates the angle.

Anyways... I'm guessing this is not necessarily a safety issue. But I'm thinking about putting a locking clip on the lap anchor side so the shoulder belt can't do the prying action.

Comments/suggestions?
 
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sfeitler

Member
It's a reasonably common problem. You can use a locking clip on the non-Britax seat, and the built-in lockoffs on the Britax seat, and not lock your shoulder belts. That should solve the problem.

We have this problem even with our MA, if it's installed RF with a locked seatbelt. I haven't had this problem with a FF seat, but there's no reason it couldn't happen FF.

-Sarah
 

azgirl71

CPST Instructor
A slight tilt is acceptable as long as the seat is definately securely installed and Does not tip over with the child in it when turning corners. And your child does not mind.

If this is not your Britax seat another thing you could try is using a locking clip instead of locking the retractor leave it in the ELR mode (freely moving unless an emergency) and use the locking clip instead. You cannot use a locking clip with Britax seats. You can however use the lockoffs without locking the belt if you need to. We try to stay away from locking clips for installs, but sometimes it can't be avoided.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
This page has some pictures of what you are probably seeing, and how to use a locking clip http://www.carseatsite.com/lockingclips.htm
This is what can happen if your shoulderbelt retractor gets a little overactive during hard braking... http://picasaweb.google.com/joolstag/TippyScenera/photo#5114907565242389250 (In many years of having seats installed RF, this only happened to me one time...Fortunately my toddler didn't even wake up, lol)... next time I installed it, I used a locking clip, obviously... :D
 

sfeitler

Member
This page has some pictures of what you are probably seeing, and how to use a locking clip http://www.carseatsite.com/lockingclips.htm
This is what can happen if your shoulderbelt retractor gets a little overactive during hard braking... http://picasaweb.google.com/joolstag/TippyScenera/photo#5114907565242389250 (In many years of having seats installed RF, this only happened to me one time...Fortunately my toddler didn't even wake up, lol)... next time I installed it, I used a locking clip, obviously... :D

WowI I've always wondered if that's the logical conclusion to the tipping problem...

-Sarah
 

Tara

New member
I always had problems with my SnugRide base doing that. I did as suggested...do NOT put the seat belt in its locking mode and instead use a locking clip. Problem solved. Not a hint of tilt. Still a nice tight install :)

Er, meant to add...also as previously mentioned..you would use the lock off on your CR if there is one. Otherwise..a locking clip.
 
I had this with my MA when rear facing but no one told me what to do. I know i need to move the tether strap to the non-latch side of my belt, but i have not tried this since. The heat is too hot to try it.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
While I haven't ever had an issue with ff'ing seat when using the locking retractor and tipping seats. I have it all the time with rf'ing seats esp the Graco Snugride. Like every said you would just use a locking clip within 1" of the latch plate (male end) and just leave the shoulder belt unlocked.
 

Synchro246

New member
Which seat is causing your issue Dimsum? I'm curious. My EFTA does this FF with shoulder-lap belts.

A question about the locking clips-- In grandma's car I'm totally unsure if the latchplates are sliding or locking. I think they might be the lightweight ones described in jools' link above. Either that or the EFTA has the belts at such an angle as they aren't locking.

Is it OK to use a locking clip with latchplates that should be locking on their own but aren't for whatever reason?
Can a locking clip be too close to the latchplate?
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
If they are locking latchplates but aren't holding tight, then the easiest solution is to install the seat tightly as normal, then unbuckle the seatbelt. Hold the latchplate so it doesn't retract, and twist it around 180 degrees and then rebuckle it.
 

Synchro246

New member
If they are locking latchplates but aren't holding tight, then the easiest solution is to install the seat tightly as normal, then unbuckle the seatbelt. Hold the latchplate so it doesn't retract, and twist it around 180 degrees and then rebuckle it.

Ok, thanks, I will try that. BTW, how many twists is ok in the buckle stalk? This seatbelt has really long buckle stalks that interfere with buckling the seat. Right now I have one twist, but more would be reallly helpful.

Sorry to hijack Dimsum.
 

Synchro246

New member
Three full twists in the stalk is ok :)
Thanks! I tried to give you rep, but I got the spread the :love: message-- seems like the 15th time today for you-- you must be on my hot list today :p

It should be within an inch of the buckle, but can be closer as long as it isn't touching. You also don't want it touching the rigid edge of the beltpath.

Thanks :) Um, do you mind clarifying what the rigid edge of the belt path is? Apparenly my tech-ease is not as good as I thought :p
 

crunchierthanthou

New member
sorry :eek: um, the corner? the hard plastic? just make sure it's not pushing against the shell. it can be either all the way in or out of the beltpath, as long as it is still within an inch of the latchplate and not hitting against anything.
 

Synchro246

New member
sorry :eek: um, the corner? the hard plastic? just make sure it's not pushing against the shell. it can be either all the way in or out of the beltpath, as long as it is still within an inch of the latchplate and not hitting against anything.

OOOOOHH :doh: gotcha. Um, I think I definitly need to re-examine the EFTA install in my moms car. UGh it's turning into a real PITA. I think I will need to twist the belt stalk two more times to get the 1'' of space next to the latch plate far enough away from the beltpath for the locking clip. Though, I need to re-examine the latchplates first anyway. Maybe the 180 twist will work there in liu of the clip.
Thanks guys!
 

dimsumdaddy

New member
Which seat is causing your issue Dimsum? I'm curious.

Graco CarGo in FF in my Subaru Impreza middle rear seat. I think it's worse in the middle seat because of the belt guide on the middle head rest.

I'm going to use the locking clip with the belt in loose mode. And I'll put the locking clip close to the male buckle.

Thanks all.
 

Valentine

New member
Is it correct that you can either lock the seatbelt or use a locking clip, but not both? We used a locking clip for the Snugride base in our van, and I just realized I don't know if the belt is locked or not.
 

azgirl71

CPST Instructor
Is it correct that you can either lock the seatbelt or use a locking clip, but not both? We used a locking clip for the Snugride base in our van, and I just realized I don't know if the belt is locked or not.

There would be no reason to lock the seatbelt and use a locking clip at the same time. Since locking clips are hard to use for some people Techs try to avoid using them and show parents how easy it is to lock the seatbelt. Sometimes you have to use a locking clip, but not lok the seatbelt for tipping issues.
On Britax seats with lock offs you can use both the lock offs and lock the seatbelt at the same time. It is not required, but not against manufacturer instructions either. I use both, not for secure install purposes, but because I do not want to route my seatbelt over my lockoff's or leave them open with the selt through them to gt broken.
 

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