5 point harness seat for three year old?

Hi,

We have a three year old daughter. She is about 40 inches tall and weighs about 37 pounds. She currently rides in a Graco MyRide65 (we turned her forward in October because of her height) in my subaru and forward facing in a SK Radian65 in my husband's dodge Dakota extended cab.

She is pretty close to no longer having the graco's top slots above her shoulders. Is it ok if they are at her shoulders ir do they need to be above? She will be four this summer but I was hoping to wait until she was at least 5 or 6 to use a booster.

I am looking at the britax frontier 85 or 90. I know the 90 is not out yet so you may not have seen it yet. I don't know if the 5 pound weight is worth $100 more on amazon than the 85 model. So I was going to go with the 85 until I saw the 90 has some new seat belt feature. My car is old enough that it doesn't have latch so we would be going with a seat belt install no matter what. I heard the 85 needs to be rear tethered (which we don't have) after a certain weight. Does the 90 as well? We are a long way from a subaru dealer. There are also no babies r us stores in our state so we can't try seats before we buy them...

Also, my husband's truck has such a small bench the radian was the only seat I could find with a small enough base (and even so I had to assure the car seat installation guy that 80% theoretically fits on the seat- even the radian sticks off). I am hoping the top slots are a little higher and will last her longer....but basically after that the only option would be something like a graco turbobooster, right? (I think the bench is 14 or 15 inches deep so most car seat bases stick way off).

I also considered the Graco nautilus for my car but read in several reviews that the crotch strap makes kids switch from 5 point to booster sooner than the frontier. She has always been very tall for her age so height seems to matter way more for us than weight limits. If you have any other suggestions for these vehicles (keeping in mind I prefer to 5 point harness longer if we can) that would be great. Thanks.

Hi, and welcome to Car-seat.org!

Unregistered said:

She is pretty close to no longer having the graco's top slots above her shoulders. Is it ok if they are at her shoulders ir do they need to be above? She will be four this summer but I was hoping to wait until she was at least 5 or 6 to use a booster.

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You are wise to wait until around 5 or 6 to put her into a booster. At age 3, she is definitely not old enough for that step. She can continue to use the MyRide if the straps are at her shoulders, but once the straps are below her shoulders, the seat is outgrown.

I am looking at the britax frontier 85 or 90. I know the 90 is not out yet so you may not have seen it yet. I don't know if the 5 pound weight is worth $100 more on amazon than the 85 model. So I was going to go with the 85 until I saw the 90 has some new seat belt feature.

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The new Frontier 90 is a hot topic around here. It may be worth the extra $100 for the ease of installation, but not, in my opinion, for the extra 5 lbs. Most real world children aren't going to fit in any harnessed car seat (including that one) past around 70 lbs anyway, and most children are ready to transition to a booster by then. However, the install feature is VERY attractive. Only you can decide whether it's worth the money to you. The Frontier 85 can be quite challenging to learn how to install in some vehicles, but once you figure out what works for your car it usually isn't too hard. We can help you with installation questions if you decide to go that route.

My car is old enough that it doesn't have latch so we would be going with a seat belt install no matter what. I heard the 85 needs to be rear tethered (which we don't have) after a certain weight. Does the 90 as well? We are a long way from a subaru dealer. There are also no babies r us stores in our state so we can't try seats before we buy them...

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Do you have Buy Buy Baby? they usually have the Frontier in the car. From what I understand, the Frontier 90 will still require top tether use after 65 lbs. Most children are plenty ready for a booster by then, so if you cannot install a top tether anchor in your vehicle, I wouldn't be too concerned with that. You can still use the Frontier in booster mode without it. That said, it would be best to install a tether anchor if possible. If you can tell us the year, make, and model of your vehicle we may be able to help you with that as well.

Also, my husband's truck has such a small bench the radian was the only seat I could find with a small enough base (and even so I had to assure the car seat installation guy that 80% theoretically fits on the seat- even the radian sticks off). I am hoping the top slots are a little higher and will last her longer....but basically after that the only option would be something like a graco turbobooster, right? (I think the bench is 14 or 15 inches deep so most car seat bases stick way off).

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Hopefully someone else can answer you on this one. I really don't know what all the shallowest car seats are for little back seats. But the Radian should last longer than the MyRide anyway, so hopefully that will get you to a decent booster age. If necessary, in the Radian your child can continue using it after the shoulders are above the top harness position, as long as the child hasn't exceeded the maximum height limit and the child's ears are still below the top of the car seat. Only the Radian allows for this and they say it's because of the way their car seat is designed, which makes it safe. I wouldn't do it unless I didn't have any other good options, but this might be a situation where the best thing is to just trust that Diono knows what they're talking about and continue using the seat as long as you can.

I also considered the Graco nautilus for my car but read in several reviews that the crotch strap makes kids switch from 5 point to booster sooner than the frontier. She has always been very tall for her age so height seems to matter way more for us than weight limits. If you have any other suggestions for these vehicles (keeping in mind I prefer to 5 point harness longer if we can) that would be great. Thanks.

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Some kids do complain about the Nautilus crotch strap, and Graco has also had a lot of complaints lately about faulty buckles. Hopefully that's an issue they'll remedy soon. By height, the Frontier usually lasts kids approximately two years longer than the Nautilus anyway. So if you're buying for a tall kid and your goal is to use it as long as you can, the Frontier may be a better choice in that regard. All that being said, the Nautilus is a very popular seat and a lot of people love it. Both seats would probably do just fine for you, but if you have the budget for it I lean toward the Frontier.

Thanks for your reply. It is very helpful.

We live in rural WY. I'm afraid I have not heard of the store you mentioned...basically we don't even have Wal Mart in our town but there is one within a reasonable driving distance (they carry Graco but not Britax). So my plan was to order off amazon because there's a bigger selection. Also I have been saving amazon points toward a car seat because the Britax seats are expensive! I don't particularly care about one brand over the other but if the nautilus won't harness her long enough since she is tall I'd rather just get the britax and know we won't have to buy another one (I think if the radian will work in the truck until booster age we'd probably get the graco high back booster but it doesn't seem expensive so I am hoping the frontier would be the last expensive seat we'd need and it would work in my subaru and whatever we ultimately replace my subaru with). We hate installing car seats and our vehicles are so different we found two different seats work better for us.

I drive a 99 subaru outback. I wouldn't mind taking it in somewhere to have the seat belts looked over/possibly replaced in the backseat (the buckle in the middle literally falls apart so she is on a side, but the graco carseat snagged on that belt recently so I would like to have it looked at). Can any dealership or mechanic safely replace a seat belt or buckle or do I need a subaru dealer if they do heed to be replaced? The nearest subaru dealer is a few hours away. I have no idea what seat belt or buckle replacement costs or if anyone around here does tether stuff. We have a ford and toyota dealership and various independent auto mechanics. My car has no latch system. I am a stay at home mom so we are choosing a one income life so we are trying to fix the subaru so it is safe and functional but if something isn't needed we might wait. My friend noticed some potential issues it may have down the road so basically we want it to be safe and try to get another year or two out of the subaru until I return to work, but if it lasts that long we'll probably trade it in for something newer so I don't know if we will get to 65 pounds with it in the next year or two and hopefully a newer car would have latch and anchors, right? We only have one kid in the back and the front seat belts seem fine, but someday if her friends ride with us it would be good to know all 3 belts were checked and functional.

My husband has a 01 dodge Dakota. It has loops at the top of the seat but no lower anchor so we are using a seat belt installation. We are a little frustrated with the radian because we have had it professionally installed three times and asked them to teach us how to do it correctly but it is not easy to get a tight install so we have checked back in periodically. At the moment, it doesn't wiggle much so it seems to have a good install (and since she's using the top slot there seems to be no reason to take it out!), but if we actually pull out the straps and try to tighten them each time within a few adjustments the entire seat becomes loose because it is so stinking hard to pull tight and I don't know why (she does not ride in the truck often but if there is a way to make it work better I am very interested!). So we put her in it with no coat on and it basically fits without adjusting but that seems dumb to me and I wonder how safe it really is. The injury prevention technician insisted it was installed correctly so I do not understand why it has come loose in the past or why it is so difficult to adjust. Are radians the same and the company name changed, or are they a totally different product now? Our seat is 2 years old. It does have a pretty tall back. So is keeping her in the 5 point radian until her ears reach safer than a high back booster even if her shoulders are over the straps? That really doesn't make sense when you watch car seat test dummies in crashes with the way the kid moves forward...wonder how they tested that? But that's good to know. I think the radian's top slot is higher than the graco's so we have more time considering a next seat for the truck.

I feel like I sound really incompetent and we are trying hard to keep her safe; we extended rear faced her as long as she fit in the seat and I would like to extend harnessing too. We bought both our vehicles before we had kids and I don't know if we had poor taste or what but between the truck's tiny backseat and the subaru's long belt stocks (I never could get the radian in the subaru, even with twisting three times), we pretty much hate installing car seats- it always feels like a battle to us. So if the frontier 90 is significantly easier to install using a seatbelt, maybe it would be worth more money if the graco will fit until June 1st. I'll check her again tomorrow in the graco to see if they are above or at her shoulders. Can anyone explain what is good about the frontier 90's new installation that makes it better? Thanks!

Here's why the installation is better. It looks so easy!! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndRebSTGemI"]BRITAX Frontier 90 ClickTight Install - YouTube[/ame]

Brigala pretty well covered it all, but I wanted to add a little bit...

You have a pretty tall 3 yr old..and it sounds like she's kind of long torsoed as well. Does she wear a size 3 shirt or is she already into 4's or 5's? When will she be 4 yrs old? So, if possible, a Frontier is your best bet to keep her harnessed the longest. That said, if she's getting close to 4 yrs old and she's just outgrowing the My Ride by height, she will make it to a safe booster age in the Nautilus (or the Evenflo Secure Kid 300 or 400 OR the Evenflo Maestro). They have the same top slots as the Nautilus. The Maestro costs a bit less, but it doesn't go any taller as a booster so it lasts only a little while in booster mode, and it's harnessed weight limit is 50 lbs.

Two bonuses of the Radian AND the Graco Nautilus are that they tested very, very well when they have to be installed without a top tether. All seats pass without a top tether, but their numbers were very good.

If you need to be super thrifty, you could buy a Maestro when she outgrows the My Ride, and use it in either vehicle and continue to use the Radian in the other until it's totally outgrown. When the Radian is totally outgrown, you could transition her to a booster in the secondary (and less used) vehicle. The Maestro will last a little while longer harnessed than the Radian and then a short time as a high back booster, and when it's outgrown, you can buy another booster. There are decent cheap boosters out there for $30, still with a back on them.

Welcome and hths!

FWIW, you are so NOT incompetent!!! Most people's carseats are installed incorrectly and most of those folks either don't know it or don't bother to learn any better. You're doing great!

As far as different cars..well, each car usually has a different challenge from another. Different types of seatbelts, how they are placed in the car, the angle of the seat bottoms or how cushy they are or concave. It all makes a difference with carseat installations. So, please don't worry about that! I think you've done really well to keep her safe.

The Radians are all made by the same company. It was just a name change. They are the same seats, some have added features over the others, but their actual size is the same. As far as the shoulders over the top slots being safe on the Radian...basically, it means they passed the same testing all other carseats did, even when tested with the dummie's shoulders over the top slots. The numbers for things like head excursion (how far forward the head flies in a crash) came out the same or better whether the dummie's shoulders were below, at, or just above those top slots. I would be fine w/her continuing to use the Radian, provided you follow SK/Diono's instructions for how long to use it.

The biggest thing for me about if the newest Frontier would be worth it for you would be this: Can the Frontier 85 be installed with the short belt path (SBP) if it's NOT top tethered? If it can't be, you have to be sure you have long enough seatbelts to install it w/the long belt path (LBP). We had one car in our family that the Regent (old predecessor to the Frontier) could not be installed in LBP due to the length of the seatbelt. And it also happened to me w/it in a few other vehicles. That's an easy question to ask here on the boards--just make a new post asking if anyone's installed a Frontier 85 in a '99 Suburu AND go to the Britax website and pull up the instruction manual for the FR 85 and read the rules for how to use the seat.

Technically, your seat belts CAN be replaced by anyone handy enough to do so, including you. Whether or not you would feel safe doing that is another story. New seatbelts at the dealership, for many vehicles, run about $200/belt, installed. You (or a mechanic) can order generic belts and buckles on line, from the same companies that make all the other seatbelts. And a mechanic can install them for you. The trick is knowing if you trust them to do it correctly or not. I personally am comfortable with someone who knows what they are doing putting them in, but there are some cars that are more difficult than others. Taking the plastic covers off the sides of the car...digging out the parts...etc. can be difficult. Plus, how do you know someone actually knows what they are doing? Just replacing one buckle is probably pretty simple. As far as the "snag" goes, if it's just a tiny snag, not a tear or a cut...just a spot the sharp edge of the carseat caught on...it's probably safe. More concerning to me is their age.

Generally speaking, if the seatbelts are over 10 yrs old, look very worn or frayed, have a cut in them, won't buckle properly, or you know they've had something really gross dumped on them (like your hubby decided to transport a used battery in the back seat...and it leaked acid onto the seatbelts), they should be inspected by someone w/some expertise, which is probably more likely at the dealership, and then replaced as needed.

The subject of who should replace the belts and with what isn't an easy one to answer. Most important to me is that you don't allow them to be replaced w/a used belt or belts removed from a car at the junkyard. (yes, people do that!). You don't know if that belt was used in an accident or not.

hths

If you don't want to spend the $300+ on the Frontier 90, we can probably help you with any quirky install issues you might come across on the much-less-expensive Frontier 85. It's selling for [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038W0JI0/"]$210-ish on Amazon[/ame] right now.

A competent mechanic should be able to replace seat belts in your vehicle. But I would spend the money to have him order genuine factory seat belts. Not all aftermarket seat belts have ALRs and that can make them a pain to install car seats with.

Your '99 Outback is equipped with top tether anchors even though you don't have lower LATCH anchors. The tether anchors are in the rear top ceiling trim.

I don't know what to say about the Radian loosening in the truck. I'd actually suggest you start a new thread about that. Something like "Radian loosening in Dodge Dakota" so hopefully someone with specific experience with that vehicle might be able to give you some ideas of what could be wrong.

Brigala said:

If you don't want to spend the $300+ on the Frontier 90, we can probably help you with any quirky install issues you might come across on the much-less-expensive Frontier 85. It's selling for $210-ish on Amazon right now.

A competent mechanic should be able to replace seat belts in your vehicle. But I would spend the money to have him order genuine factory seat belts. Not all aftermarket seat belts have ALRs and that can make them a pain to install car seats with.

Your '99 Outback is equipped with top tether anchors even though you don't have lower LATCH anchors. The tether anchors are in the rear top ceiling trim.

I don't know what to say about the Radian loosening in the truck. I'd actually suggest you start a new thread about that. Something like "Radian loosening in Dodge Dakota" so hopefully someone with specific experience with that vehicle might be able to give you some ideas of what could be wrong.

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Regarding the bolded part above. I'm pretty sure you only the pre-drilled holes for installing the top tethers. We used to have a '99 Outback and it was easy to see the plugs above the hatch where the top tethers could be installed. We traded the vehicle before we had any FF kids so never got around to installing top tethers.

Ok gonna just throw this idea out there if you want something more inexpensive for one of the cars. The new evenflo sure ride has the same top harness slots pretty much as the frontier 85 at 19.5in, it does only have the upper weight limit of 65lbs vs the 85lbs of the frontier, but I did just get one for a spare car for my 7yr old who has some muscle tone issues when sleeping in the car since she was to tall for the nautilus, maestro, basically anything but the frontier 85 which she has in our car. And at 7yr old and 53lbs and 43in she has tons of room, the top slots are above her ears. Forgot to add it runs around $100

I'll second the Sureride recommendation- you can see my comparison pictures here http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=243565

aeormsby said:

Regarding the bolded part above. I'm pretty sure you only the pre-drilled holes for installing the top tethers. We used to have a '99 Outback and it was easy to see the plugs above the hatch where the top tethers could be installed. We traded the vehicle before we had any FF kids so never got around to installing top tethers.

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According to the 2013 LATCH manual, in the Subaru Outback 4D Wagon, model years 96-00, there are three tether anchors in the rear top ceiling trim.

So if there are only drill holes, then the LATCH manual is in error. Which is entirely possible.