Can an RF install be rock solid as an FF install?

M

milli

New member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #1

Y'day we had our car seat(BLVD RF installed) inspected by CHP. He said it was not tight enough(I thought it was always tight) and tried to re-install it. However he could not get the lock-off closed.

So he installed it FF and made it really rock solid(saying it is ok to go FF for my 15-month old daughter). I can't move it even a cm in any direction.

After this, we tried to re-install an RF MA in another car to see if we could make it as tight as the FF. But we could not do it.

My question is can you have an RF install as solid as the FF install? If so I would like to take it to another place to have it RF'd. If not, which one is safer? A rock solid FF or a so-so RF.

 

MomToEliEm

Moderator

• Aug 24, 2007

• #2

Where was he measuring movement on the rearfacing seat? Was it at the belt path or near the top of the seat. A rearfacing seat is suppose to move some (especially up and down) and it also can wiggle some near the top of the seat. It is more important to have a good tight install at the beltpath of the seat.

I would truthfully prefer a rearfacing seatbelt install in a rearfacing seat with less then 1" of movement at the beltpath, over a forward facing install with less then 1cm of movement. Rearfacing is just so much safer.

How much movement was he seeing at the beltpath on the rearfacing install?

 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician

• Aug 24, 2007

• #3

Did you try top tethering the BV rearfacing to get it 'rock solid'? And yeah, WHERE was he/are you measuring movement? the seat ONLY needs to be tight at the belt path, and even then it can move an inch side to side or front to back which is truthfully a lot of movement. What car? What seating position?
Frankly, I would not ever put my own 15 month old FF, if that seat won't work in your car (though I'm sure it does), I'd buy a new seat to keep her RF.

 

M

milli

New member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #4

Car: Maxima
Seat position: Middle

He just found my install was not tight enough(he was shaking it so hard though). But while he was installing(RF) he couldn't get the lock-off closed when he made it really tight. I asked him to do whatever was safer and he decided to installed it FF.

The questions I asked were more for myself.

I could always get it installed with less than 1-inch movement along the belt path. I have it top tethered but I don't think you can make it rock solid if you also want to have the right angle(depends on the car cushioning).

Three things I wanted to confirm with RF install and from what MomToEliEm said, my understanding was right:

* However tight it is(along the belt path) you can move it up and down. Top tethering could avoid this movement but you could never get it rock solid(if you want to have the right angle)
* Some wiggling at the top and again tethering could avoid it.
* It can never be like FF install.

The other car we tried(MA on) was Integra(2-door) and boy it was even hard to get to the lock-off(forget about closing it). But we managed to do it. We are planning to take this one to an install station but couldn't find one available so far.

 

S

sfeitler

Member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #5

What years are the cars? Do they have locking seatbelts? If the seat belts can be locked themselves, you don't have to use the lockoff. Although sometimes it seems to me you get a tighter install with the lockoff than with a locked belt.

We have a Marathon rearfacing in our Prius, installed with a lap/shoulder seatbelt, and it doesn't move at all at the seatbelt. We've tethered it, but I can't honestly tell you if it moves at the top of the back, or not.... haven't tested.

-Sarah

 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician

• Aug 24, 2007

• #6

Ok, so simple answer: No, you can't get an RF seat as tight as an FF seat. More explanation: The new tech curriculum would be teaching him that he's doing it all wrong . It's not supposed to even be that super rock solid when it's FF, you aren't supposed to SHOVE it to test tightness at the belt path. You can skip the lockoffs if your cars are newer than 1996, just install it tightly then GENTLY pull the shoulderbelt out to lock it, so that it won't pull the seat into a tilt (lapbelt is all you need to hold tight in any case).
My RF seats really do wiggle substantially more than my FF seats, but that's just how it is, it's still WAY WAY safer (I hope that CHP guy is up for some new training soon...he's the type of tech that really needs a bit more training, it sounds like...the very guy they re-did the curriculum for )

 

UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus

• Aug 24, 2007

• #7

If the seat was properly installed (sounds like it was, but we can't be sure without actually seeing the seat in person), and it moved less than 1" side to side at the belt path, that is a good install, and would be preferred over turning the seat front facing because rear facing provides so much better protection than front facing.

I've gotten rock solid installations with rear facing seats, but in general, they're a little bit more "squirrelly" just by nature of how a rear facing seat fits in a vehicle. Without a rear facing tether attached, you will be able to wiggle a rear facing seat loose if you pull hard enough &/or in the right spot. That's not "testing for movement."

 

M

milli

New member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #8

99 maxima
97 integra

Both have ALR.

joolsplus3, That's how I install it RF but without the lock-off if I shake it little harder along the belt path, it pulls the seat up.

UlrikeDG, that's exactly what I'm experiencing with the RF install. With top tethering, you could avoid it but again if you tightened it too much you can not have the 45 degree angle. which mostly depends on your seat cushioning.

joolsplus3, why is rock solid install not recommended any more?

 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician

• Aug 24, 2007

• #9

When they do the crash testing, it's not installed rock solid... it's just buckled and the belt locked, no super human force is necessary, and that's how they expect you to do it in the real world. We've gotten so hell-bent on rock solid installs as techs, that we've lost sight of the real goal: to teach parents to install the seats themselves acceptably tight. So the curriculum has been modified.

Here's another idea... which lockoff does your manual specify you use? Have you tried using the other side? (either/neither/or both is actually ok, they just say to use the one on the non-buckle side to prevent the buckle from breaking the lockoff if it's on a long buckle stalk)

Usually, pulling the base of the seat towards the front of the car and kind of wiggling the belts so that they are NOT right on top of each other, will help the belt fit in the lockoff best, and the lockoff stay closed. They also have completely new installation instructions in new lockoffs: they are screwed in the opposite way, so the hinge is on the other side, that's supposed to make them stay locked (kind of a pain to order new ones, but it might work great).

 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor

• Aug 24, 2007

• #10

RF'ing seats are different from ff'ing seats in how they install, and unless a seat is top tethered, you will always always always have the movement at the top of the seat shell regardless of how tight the seat belt is. (Not all seats can be tethered when rf'ing, only Britax and sunshine kids allows it with their convertibles.) What matters is movement at the belt path. Same thing with a ff'ing car seat - you'll have that movement at the top of the seat shell before attaching the top tether. And you're checking for a proper install before tightening the top tether as well.

In terms of the lock-off, locking the seatbelt is fine instead of using the lock-off. What helps a lot of people in getting the lock-off closed is to slightly spread the shoulder and lap portion so that they're not 100% one on top of the other. Having it not be so thick right in the middle seems to help the lock-off close.

I am in agreement with the others - I would take an acceptable rf'ing install over a "rock solid" ff'ing install any day of the week. It's just so so much safer to be rf'ing, that as long as you're within the 1" rule, you're golden. :thumbsup:

 

skaterbabs

Well-known member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #11

snowbird25ca said:

I would take an acceptable rf'ing install over a "rock solid" ff'ing install any day of the week. It's just so so much safer to be rf'ing, that as long as you're within the 1" rule, you're golden. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

 

M

milli

New member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #12

Thanks for all your inputs and recommendations. I will try to RF myself again over the weekend.

I really want to RF as long as possible. In fact I got educated after I started reading this forum. This is our first baby and we have never installed an FF seat before. But after seeing his FF install, I got confused and wanted to clarify my doubts about RF install.

joolsplus3, britax manual says you should use the lock-off farthest from seat belt latch. I have not tried the other one.

snowbird25ca, with the CHP guy install, I can't move the top as well(It's not tethered since my car does not have an anchor). When I say rock solid, I really mean it. Believe me we tried installing(RF) many times on the other car and comparing it with this one for about 2 hours y'day.

 

C

chickenman

New member

• Aug 24, 2007

• #13

but the decision of rf versus ff is up to the parent, unless he thought the install itself was unsafe

 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician

• Aug 24, 2007

• #14

milli said:

with the CHP guy install, I can't move the top as well(It's not tethered since my car does not have an anchor). When I say rock solid, I really mean it. Believe me we tried installing(RF) many times on the other car and comparing it with this one for about 2 hours y'day.

Click to expand...

But remember, your baby's proportionately large head will fly forward with extreme force, no matter if the FF seat is tight. In even a looseish RF install, the baby's head and spine will be cradled and protected in the seat shell. If you can find some crash tests to get a feel of the enormous and forceful forward movement that happens to a baby's head and neck, and the cradling of a RF seat, it'll help you put it back in perspective.

Good luck, I really think you won't have a hard time getting them acceptably installed RF

 

K

Karen

New member

• Aug 25, 2007

• #15

I could not get my BLVD rock solid in the middle seat of my car. I could get it pretty tight, but not rock solid. I moved it to behind the driver's seat and now it absolutely does.not.move. Maybe try that before going FFing.

 

M

milli

New member

• Aug 25, 2007

• #16

We tried today and were able to install it really tight(not rock solid though). Can still move but may be 8th or 4th of an inch. I think it is acceptable. Also have a tech appointment next week so can get it checked.

Thanks again everyone.

 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician

• Aug 25, 2007

• #17

Yay . I go out and check mine periodically, and they really do wobble quite a bit, but it's sort of something you get used to, funny as it sounds... :thumbsup: