Question 2014 changes

tam_shops · Jun 9, 2012

I read started reading this
and
this and wondered if it'll affect us here...

Does any of this apply to Canada?

Sorry if it already says the impact on us, I've yet to read past the first page! LOL

tam

bubbaray · Jun 9, 2012

Presumably any impact would only be on the lower anchor limits because we do not follow the US on top tether weights. We top tether a FFg harnessed seat regardless of the weight of the child and regardless of whether it is installed via LATCH or belt. There was a bit furor here last year with the US techs because many are of the view that the TT should only be used to the LATCH limit of the seat and once, say over 40lbs in an Honda( just as an example), one would uninstall LATCH (including the TT) and install via belt (without using the TT). I ignored that discussion for the most part because it doesn't apply here.

tiggercat · Jun 9, 2012

I don't think it will directly affect us, since it is a NHTSA "rule". But manufacturers might chose to label seats in the same manner for both markets.

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sunflower · Jun 14, 2012

It's only 2012! Why jump ahead so far ahead?

TechnoGranola · Jun 14, 2012

bubbaray said:
Presumably any impact would only be on the lower anchor limits because we do not follow the US on top tether weights. We top tether a FFg harnessed seat regardless of the weight of the child and regardless of whether it is installed via LATCH or belt. There was a bit furor here last year with the US techs because many are of the view that the TT should only be used to the LATCH limit of the seat and once, say over 40lbs in an Honda( just as an example), one would uninstall LATCH (including the TT) and install via belt (without using the TT). I ignored that discussion for the most part because it doesn't apply here.

Except what bugs me is this on Transport Canada's site:

Important: If your child weighs over 18 kg (40 lbs), please ask your vehicle manufacturer if your vehicle can support a heavier child with the UAS and tether, or the seat belt and tether.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safedrivers-childsafety-stage2-forward-facing-1085.htm

And there isn't currently a manufacturer that rates the top tether to 65# is there? For example, I called Honda Canada and was told 40# (as we all know) for each the lower anchors and top tether. I asked about installing with the seatbelt after and using top tether and they reiterated the 40# limit. I asked what the solution was and they said, "well booster seats don't require the top tether". I know other manufacturers have told others that the top tether has a limit as well.

Now, this was a couple years ago. Maybe Transport Canada has worked with the manufacturers in the meantime. But if you read TC's site, then call your manufacturer, people may think that the top tether is not allowed and move to a booster sooner than they should for their child.

And what bothers me most, is if TC wants us to follow the vehicle manufacturer's rules, AND they are sticking by the top tether having the same limit as the lower anchors, then 65# seats don't do us much good in Canada.

tam_shops · Jun 14, 2012

Maybe they want us to ERF to 45# and then booster almost like Sweden! LOL

I've heard/read the debate on the lower latch, but missed that Honda said the top tether was only good to 40#. Wonder how they can get away w/ that...

tam

bubbaray · Jun 14, 2012

But if the applicable laws require TTg, the the seat must be TTd, even if Honda says no.

Personally I would TT even if a vehicle manufacturer said not to because even of that TA fails, OT will help reduce HE. This was my view last year when the US techs were debating the same issue.

TechnoGranola · Jun 14, 2012

tam_shops said:
I've heard/read the debate on the lower latch, but missed that Honda said the top tether was only good to 40#. Wonder how they can get away w/ that...

tam

I believe most (all?) manufacturers rate it as a system. So this isn't just Honda.

bubbaray said:
But if the applicable laws require TTg, the the seat must be TTd, even if Honda says no.

Personally I would TT even if a vehicle manufacturer said not to because even of that TA fails, OT will help reduce HE. This was my view last year when the US techs were debating the same issue.

I don't disagree that top tethering will help regardless if over the weight. (my kid was top tethered over my vehicle's top tether limit) But my point was that TC is telling you to ask your vehicle manufacturer; they aren't saying "use the top tether over the weight your manufacture recommends because it's still beneficial". And if the manufacturer tells you it's not rated any higher and you shouldn't use it, many people won't do it just because it's the law. They'll move to a seat which is within the law which is a booster for a child 40# and over. Well except for the Diono Radian, I guess if you have that in any vehicle you're technically screwed at any point. From 40-50# or 48-50#. Ha ha.

There is basically a gap that needs to be addressed. And it's becoming more evident now that manufacturer's are starting to put their limits in manuals, the CSR's know the limits when you call, etc.

Nimommyof2 · Jun 14, 2012

but if you read it its actually talking about only the bottom anchors which I thought were called UAS in Canada and top tether was something different unless I'm miss reading something. Its says that 40lb thing under step one but if you read down to step two which is about the top tether it actually says nothing about a limit and if you read further it says seats go to 65lbs

Nimommyof2 · Jun 14, 2012

Sorry above post is in regards to the transport Canada link

TechnoGranola · Jun 14, 2012

Nimommyof2 said:
but if you read it its actually talking about only the bottom anchors which I thought were called UAS in Canada and top tether was something different unless I'm miss reading something. Its says that 40lb thing under step one but if you read down to step two which is about the top tether it actually says nothing about a limit and if you read further it says seats go to 65lbs

The wording I have quoted specifically states "top tether".

And yes, their further statements seem to muddy the waters more. If they want their statement to refer only to lower UAS, then they need to change it to say so.

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Nimommyof2 · Jun 14, 2012

Hmm I reread it I guess it depends how you read it I read it to say UAS(the lower anchors) with the tether or do you do seatbelt with the tether so if Honda's limit is 40lbs you switch to seatbelt and tethers.

TechnoGranola · Jun 14, 2012

Nimommyof2 said:
Hmm I reread it I guess it depends how you read it I read it to say UAS(the lower anchors) with the tether or do you do seatbelt with the tether so if Honda's limit is 40lbs you switch to seatbelt and tethers.

It says call to find out whether you can use either option with tether over 40#. I'd like to read it your way, but unless the end the sentence after the UAS and tether bit and start a new one to say "if your vehicle can't, then switch to", I just don't think it says that.

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amyd · Jun 14, 2012

Nimommyof2 said:
Hmm I reread it I guess it depends how you read it I read it to say UAS(the lower anchors) with the tether or do you do seatbelt with the tether so if Honda's limit is 40lbs you switch to seatbelt and tethers.

This is how I read it initially as well but I think Techno is right. At best it's ambiguous. :thumbsdown: I also will tether past the stated weight in DH's Honda unless DS takes another year to hit 40lb. If that's the case, he'll just go into a booster. My vehicle (Mazda) doesn't specify a limit.

TechnoGranola · Jun 14, 2012

I read it again and again and again and I think I see what you two are getting at. You are reading it like "Important: If your child weighs over 18 kg (40 lbs), please ask your vehicle manufacturer if your vehicle can support a heavier child with the UAS and tether, or the seat belt and tether SHOULD BE USED INSTEAD." Am I getting that?

If that is what they mean, and I hope they do, it is poor English without my addition. Seatbelt isn't a verb. LOL And equally poor English with my addition.

The seatbelt part really needs to be a separate sentence and worded differently.

Anyone motivated to call Transport Canada and ask them what they really mean? I'm getting sick and am feeling rather crusty so my words aren't coming out the nicest today...

amyd · Jun 14, 2012

TechnoGranola said:
I read it again and again and again and I think I see what you two are getting at. You are reading it like "Important: If your child weighs over 18 kg (40 lbs), please ask your vehicle manufacturer if your vehicle can support a heavier child with the UAS and tether, or the seat belt and tether SHOULD BE USED INSTEAD." Am I getting that?

If that is what they mean, and I hope they do, it is poor English without my addition. Seatbelt isn't a verb. LOL And equally poor English with my addition. The seatbelt part really needs to be a separate sentence and worded differently.

Anyone motivated to call Transport Canada and ask them what they really mean? I'm getting sick and am feeling rather crusty so my words aren't coming out the nicest today...

Yes, that's what I was thinking. No, I don't want to call TC. My kids both start screaming at me the second I think about making a phone call. Where's Angie? Make her call:duck:

. Or Tam...she started this whole mess

canadiangie · Jun 14, 2012

I'm here. I've merely skimmed this thread. What exactly do you want me to ask?

amyd said:
Yes, that's what I was thinking. No, I don't want to call TC. My kids both start screaming at me the second I think about making a phone call. Where's Angie? Make her call:duck:. Or Tam...she started this whole mess

tam_shops · Jun 14, 2012

Me, start a debate?

Me!?

My answers are always as clear as mud, even when I have the correct information!

If TC allows for seats over 40# AND they know all seats need top tether to pass, then the top tether must *work* for over 40#. Right?

Plus, we've never seen a top tether failure, have we?

Finally, how many kids are in a 5pt beyond 40#?

I'll be lucky if ODS make it TO 40# in a GN before getting too tall. And, YDS has an even longer torso, so I'll bet he'll never make it there either!

tam

Nimommyof2 · Jun 14, 2012

Well if I knew who to call I could do it tomorrow but not sure I'd word the question right. But yes I was reading it that way especially since its in the section above installing with a tether in the tether section it doesn't say anything like that.

amyd · Jun 14, 2012

canadiangie said:
I'm here. I've merely skimmed this thread. What exactly do you want me to ask?

I'm just pickin' on ya

, although, if you want to...I think Techno's wondering about clarification on the excerpt from the TC website that she highlighted in blue on the first page of this thread. The wording's a bit unclear in the bit about asking the vehicle manufacturer whether it is okay to install with UAS and tether or seatbelt and tether past 40lbs. Are they implying that at some point using the tether may not be appropriate, whether the seat is installed with UAS OR seatbelt (thus requiring the child to go into a booster regardless of age or maturity), or are they saying that if the UAS + tether is not appropriate then the seatbelt + tether WILL be and parents should ask the manufacturer which combo is appropriate, assuming all along that the tether will be used. Is that clear as mud?

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