Vacationing in western Europe - need advice

We will be visiting DH's family in Belgium, and I'm trying to figure out the carseat situation. We hope not to rent a car, but aren't sure yet (the "right of the right" law, where anyone on any street to your right - no matter how small the street- having right of way is scary). We have DD1, almost 8, 45 lbs, about 48" and DD2, 3.5 years, 25 lbs, and 36".

DD1 is in a HBB at home. There are cousins her age, so I think that we will use the booster of the relatives who will pick us up at the airport. I had debated about bringing the RSTV for her - not sure - it gives no side impact protection. If the boosters available to us are LB or no good, I may have to buy one for her while we are there. Looking at the Britax Adventure as being good for 3 across at home in the Prius, and not too heavy or spendy over there.

DD2 is more complicated. I had thought to take her Radian 65 and FF her there so I don't have to worry about the RF boot, or trying to fit it in tiny cars over there. BUT I've been hearing that cars over there have no locking belts, which might make installing it even worse????? I don't know if the relatives there have Isofix in their cars - I guess it is optional - DH was supposed to ask, but forgot. I am afraid that the relatives will suggest simply boostering her, but she is too light, too young, and way too wiggly for me to even consider that option (In that part of Europe, FF at 9 months is standard, and having a 3 year old in a booster is not uncommon).

If there is no isofix, the other seat we have is a BLVD. Much easier install with seatbelts, not as easy for lugging it around in the airport or using the tray in the airplane.

Any help or advice on what seats to take, or to purchase abroad would be much appreciated. BTW, none of the Swedish seats are available there.

The Ride Safer Vest DOES offer side impact protection by dint of functioning like a 5 point harness

I would be nervous about taking the Radian when you really don't know what kind of vehicle you're going to be dealing with on the other end. Can you forward your relatives some money and ask them to purchase a harnessed seat you select in advance? And use the CARES on the plane? Too bad she's too small for the RSTV

Belgium - nice place, don't go too crazy on the amazing chocolate Your oldest would be fine in any hbb, I would even be fine with just a booster cushion unless you will be making long drives where she will sleep in the car. A hbb is preferable though.

Britax Adventure is a cheap, light and excellent HBB, I can highly recommend this one. Weighs 3.5 kg with nice belt fit and a smart construction which makes it almost impossible to route seat belt wrong way.

Plane ride is irrelevant. Car seat or not doesn't matter, safety on the aircraft is still safer than sitting down for dinner when not using a car seat.

HBB for a 3.5 year old is a stretch but could work in emergency. I think your DD2 is too short for a nice belt fit and I rather see anyone in a hbb being at least 4.

Car seat safety in that part of Europe is as you say terrible and young kids in a booster is common. She would of course RF for a couple of more years in a Swedish seat but it might be doable. Swedish seats are not sold there but can be at your door in a few days.

Most newer cars in Europe have Isofix but it also depends a bit on brand.

Are you planning on doing lots of driving or just short rides?

Adventuredad said:

Belgium - nice place, don't go too crazy on the amazing chocolate Your oldest would be fine in any hbb, I would even be fine with just a booster cushion unless you will be making long drives where she will sleep in the car. A hbb is preferable though.

Britax Adventure is a cheap, light and excellent HBB, I can highly recommend this one. Weighs 3.5 kg with nice belt fit and a smart construction which makes it almost impossible to route seat belt wrong way.

Plane ride is irrelevant. Car seat or not doesn't matter, safety on the aircraft is still safer than sitting down for dinner when not using a car seat.

HBB for a 3.5 year old is a stretch but could work in emergency. I think your DD2 is too short for a nice belt fit and I rather see anyone in a hbb being at least 4.

Car seat safety in that part of Europe is as you say terrible and young kids in a booster is common. She would of course RF for a couple of more years in a Swedish seat but it might be doable. Swedish seats are not sold there but can be at your door in a few days.

Most newer cars in Europe have Isofix but it also depends a bit on brand.

Are you planning on doing lots of driving or just short rides?

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This is categorically false. Please don't extend your opinion as fact, particularly when major safety related institutions and research disagree with you.

In light of the new info on the non-locking seatbelts, I'd just as soon take the BLVD. The only seat I'd consider buying is for DD2 is a Kiddy:

http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/child-car-seats/kiddy-comfort-pro/review

But we'd have to try it first - that type of seat is so different, I'd hate to spend the money and have her hate it. And there is always the chance that the seatbelts we have here would be too short for it. That type of seat is supposed to be the safest FF seat for younger riders - safer than even a harness with give, like the Radian. But as interesting as it sounds, it's a very expensive seat with so many doubts as to it working for us.

Most of the harnessed seats there are made FF for her size. I'd just as soon struggle with one in the airports as buy another FF seat. I think they have a 20% or so VAT, which really, really adds up on a big purchase like a seat.

I may consider the vest for DD1, but Iceland air will allow for a seat that you use, but not a booster-type one, I think. Dh wants to go carry-on only, hence the desire to use the relative's booster, at least for the start. We're going to do a dry-run on the packing - IA's carry-on limit is 13 lbs per person. I think DH is being optimistic (or maybe delusional....), but I'm willing to try. Waiting for luggage stinks, as you hit customs with everybody else...we'd do checked on the way back, otherwise there'd be no room for chocolate.

Boy, my typing is slow - doesn't help any that the kids are fighting like cats...

We hope to do the bus, the train, and trams and avoid the car as much as possible, but we're not sure yet. It sounds like enough relatives would pick us up at train stations that we might be able to not drive at all. As far as length, well Belgium is so tiny, I don't think you could go more than 2-3 hours and still be in the borders, if that, unless you hit traffic. I don't think we have any long drives planned at this point - we'd do train or tram.

For DD2, I am just not willing to do a HBB. I don't know of a booster here that keeps a 25# (11.4 kg) kid safe. She is just too tiny. And I think she will have to have a seat on the plane - safety aside, she would be up and around unless she's in a seat. I dread the flight with her, she is a very active kid.

Well, I literally just got back from Europe(Slovakia), we got in last night. I have an almost 5 year old and 2 and a half year old. I brought an MA for my youngest, and an RSTV for my oldest. I chose the MA out of all my seats because of the built in lockoffs, and also because it is thinner in the base than my TrueFit(for the super skinny plane seats). The MA was the perfect choice, the install was a breeze in 3 different cars that we rode in. One had ISOFIX, but I actually ended up not using it because the seat was closer to the middle of the seats that way, and took up extra inches that we desperately needed due to the tiny cars everyone was driving. I can say that none of the seatbelts locked, and if I had used a locking clip, it would have made my life quite hellish. The lockoffs saved me for sure. Bad things about the MA were completely plane travel based. It was heavy, and has such a high base that the plane tray could not be used. It also made for no leg room for DD when the seat in front of her was reclined. The back of the seat was touching her knees. But this is also due to the airline we used(Austrian), there was no room for anyone. The Air Canada flights we took were fine and had a lot more room.

I would definately recommend a seat with lockoffs, and although a BLVD will be heavy and annoying to lug with you, I think that it will be easier in the long run not having to mess with a locking clip.

I told DH to e-mail the relatives we will be riding with and ask about Isofix. I would really prefer the Radian, for the plane, but only if the relatives have Isofix. I'm assuming that my chances of a decent Radian install are pretty good if they have Isofix?

I spent some time looking around yesterday to see what seats I could find, and the one Romer/Britax dealer that had boosters only had the Kid Plus and the Kidfix, not the Adventure. Britax does show one more dealer in the area we'll be in, but that dealer doesn't have a website. So I may not end up with any new seats at all - I also mentioned the prices of the Kiddy or the Swedish Britax seats to DH, and he is not so interested in paying so much. If we didn't already have the Radians, and she was younger, I think it'd be more tempting. But she'll be 4 in the late winter anyways, and he would be more amenable to buying a RF seat here. Oh well.

Adventuredad, how does the Adventure compare in width to the Kidfix? I would not care to get a heavier seat like the Kid Plus and not have the ability to latch it in place. Our back seat has "scooped out" places for either passenger, but not in the middle, so 3 across is hard to do anyways - you can't simply scoot one seat to the side a bit, it won't sit level.

You may want to ask your relatives if their middle seat is a lap belt. In my DH's Fiat none of the 3 point seat belts lock, but the middle can be used because it has the locking buckle which is great for most car seat installs.

It might be worth a go on the middle seatbelt, but to be honest, I've had such poor luck with any Radian seatbelt installs, I just don't know if I'd risk it.

It's a pity that a seat that is so good otherwise is so stinky to install....

Maedze said:

This is categorically false. Please don't extend your opinion as fact, particularly when major safety related institutions and research disagree with you.

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It's not an opinion, it's reality and it's a fact. Children (or adults) dying on aircraft due to turbulence are virtually nonexistent. So are serious injuries. Those who are injured are not wearing seat belts.

Please check stats from any reputable source, such as FAA, and it will be very clear children are safer on a plane WITHOUT a car seat than sitting down at the dinner table. I have enclosed a few quotes below

Telling parents flying without a CARES harness or car seat is not safe is laughable. Any person working professionally with car seats know this very well, this is why there is no safety focus on this area.

Turbulence in the skies over the United States has killed two passengers since 1980 and injured more than 316, plus at least 138 flight attendants, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

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Fifty-five turbulence related accidents were reported during the period 1982-1991, ranging from a maximum of 10 in 1986 to three in 1989. One fatality and 79 serious injuries were reported, ranging from 14 serious injuries in 1986tp four sserious injuries in 1983″ (US Federal Aviation Administration)

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Most were hurt because they were not wearing seat belts, even though the ”fasten seat belt” sign had been turned on.

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“Most of the injuries that occur because of turbulence are preventable if people wear their seat belts,” Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Alison Duquette said yesterday.

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Uh, AdventureDad, I don't know how else to say this, but you're wrong.

You are deliberately manipulating statistics to try to make them say something they don't.

Just because flying is safer than doing XYZ does not translate to it being just as safe to fly without a restraint. This is categorically false, as I've said, and there is plenty of documentation to prove it. Children and babies as well as adults are injured when they are not correctly restrained.

Since you brought the FAA up, the FAA advises that ALL children under 40 pounds be restrained in car seats. So does the AAP, and any number of other reputable organizations. To say that there has been no focus in this area is a ridiculous untruth.

As for people who work professionally with car seats, I do, as well as do the number of technicians on the board. Selling car seats does not make you a professional.

I'm not sure why this is something you are so eager to spread misinformation about. You're welcome to your opinion, but please back it up with facts, not with blatant untruths.


All your quotes are meaningless because children under 40 pounds and infants in particular cannot be buckled safely into lap belts.

bigteamug said:

I told DH to e-mail the relatives we will be riding with and ask about Isofix. I would really prefer the Radian, for the plane, but only if the relatives have Isofix. I'm assuming that my chances of a decent Radian install are pretty good if they have Isofix?

I spent some time looking around yesterday to see what seats I could find, and the one Romer/Britax dealer that had boosters only had the Kid Plus and the Kidfix, not the Adventure. Britax does show one more dealer in the area we'll be in, but that dealer doesn't have a website. So I may not end up with any new seats at all - I also mentioned the prices of the Kiddy or the Swedish Britax seats to DH, and he is not so interested in paying so much. If we didn't already have the Radians, and she was younger, I think it'd be more tempting. But she'll be 4 in the late winter anyways, and he would be more amenable to buying a RF seat here. Oh well.

Adventuredad, how does the Adventure compare in width to the Kidfix? I would not care to get a heavier seat like the Kid Plus and not have the ability to latch it in place. Our back seat has "scooped out" places for either passenger, but not in the middle, so 3 across is hard to do anyways - you can't simply scoot one seat to the side a bit, it won't sit level.

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Both Adventure and Kid Plus are 43 cm wide (17 inches) wide. Kid Plus is a bit more expensive and heavier. It weighs 6.5 kg compared to 3.5 kg for Adventure. Both seats have two different positions which work well. Adventure is also called "VIP" or "Highliner" in some places. It's a really nice light weight seat.

Maedze said:

Uh, AdventureDad, I don't know how else to say this, but you're wrong.

You are deliberately manipulating statistics to try to make them say something they don't.

Just because flying is safer than doing XYZ does not translate to it being just as safe to fly without a restraint. This is categorically false, as I've said, and there is plenty of documentation to prove it. Children and babies as well as adults are injured when they are not correctly restrained.

Since you brought the FAA up, the FAA advises that ALL children under 40 pounds be restrained in car seats. So does the AAP, and any number of other reputable organizations. To say that there has been no focus in this area is a ridiculous untruth.

As for people who work professionally with car seats, I do, as well as do the number of technicians on the board. Selling car seats does not make you a professional.

I'm not sure why this is something you are so eager to spread misinformation about. You're welcome to your opinion, but please back it up with facts, not with blatant untruths.


All your quotes are meaningless because children under 40 pounds and infants in particular cannot be buckled safely into lap belts.

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I'm not manipulating anything. The stats come straight from FAA. Are you saying FAA is publishing incorrect facts?

It's easy to prove your point. Please show peer reviewed stats showing lots of children are dying on aircraft due to turbulence. Since it's so dangerous without car seats there should be thousands of children dying each year on planes due to turbulence. There are 25 000+ flights each day in US alone, and extremely few are using a car seat on board, so there should be a very large amount of children dead or injured.

Car seats are not used on planes in Europe, lap belts are most often used, there should be a huge number of dead an injured children each day if it's not safe to fly with children without car seats.

You're right about selling car seats not making anyone a professional. This is why most people aren't professionals and don't know enough about the subject. Just because FAA and AAP says something doesn't make it true. AAP is 30 years behind in everything they say so hardly a good source.

Glad you brought up FAA and their advice. They want to make car seats on planes mandatory which would not save a single life, instead it would drastically increase fatalities among children since more parents would be using cars.

There is a very small group of people who know a lot about car seats. These people are involved in crash testing, building car seats, running large car seat companies, developing standards such as Isofix, know every single angle regarding FMVSS or ECE R44 testing, etc.

These people laugh at the statement that flying with children is not safe. All available statistic also show it's the safest thing we can ever do with our children. If you don't agree please provide peer reviewed statistics, not some statement about what FAA is thinking, which show flying without a car seat on a plane is dangerous.

You can do it via PM so we won't bore the others too much and distract from OP.

I really am interested in this since I will be flying to Germany in April and have been on plenty of plane rides myself but never with my kids/carseats. So, I would love to "hear" both sides of the story. Does anyone have direct links to research about this? I'm happy to do the reading myself if you don't want to post it here. Thanks. I'm off to my college library database to do some research. :thumbsup:

What I am curious about is (and I understand I know NOTHING about this so could be totally wrong) the number of people who survive plane crashes w/ and w/out car seats to determine the necessity of them. Is this the reason you would need a car seat (for a crash that is)? I would think you would just die anyway if you crashed. Or, is it the turbulence and projectiles during it that could hurt you that are survivable but being in a car seat somehow limits injuries? Not trying to be snarky, just informed :thumbsup:

I did get more info from DH's family.

Soooo, they do have boosters (they called it a seat where the child is held in place with the car's belt, which I read as "booster"), and they suggested one for DD2. Given that I think that these are turboboosters, they would probably only be good from 15 kg - not that I would use a booster for DD2 unless there was no other option in an emergency.

Second, neither relative has isofix in the car. So, the Britax BLVD it will have to be, for the ability to use lock-offs.

I don't think CARES is an option on Iceland Air:

"Passengers traveling with infants may bring on board an approved child seat, provided that there are free seats on the flight in question. Passengers can ensure a seat for a child seat by purchasing the child fare. The use of child seats is allowed during all stages of the flight, including during take-off and landing, provided that:

1. The child seat is designed for attachment to a seat with a 2-point belt (normal seat belts on passenger seats in aircraft). Child seats that are specifically designed for attachment with 3-point belts (normal seatbelts in cars) may not be used.

2. The child seat meets at least one of the following conditions:

The child seat is approved for use in vehicles in accordance with the European Standard ECE R44-03 or later amendments.
The child seat is approved for use in motor vehicles and aircraft in accordance with the US Standard US FMVSS No. 213 and has been manufactured according to this standard as of 26 February 1985. Child seats that meet US requirements must have the following label in red lettering: 1)"This child restraint system conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards" and 2)"This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft".
The child seat is approved for use in aircraft in accordance with the German Standard on "Qualification Procedure for Child Restraint Systems in Aircraft" (TUV Doc.:/958-01/2001).
The child seat is approved for use in motor vehicles and aircraft in accordance with the Canadian Standard CMVSS 213/213,1."

It sounds like it is carseats only to me. So un-ideal as it is for airtravel, we'll take her BLVD. Having her ride without a carseat is not an option as DD2 is neither the 40 lbs that is recommended for kids to ride without, and she'd be up and down the aisles all the time if we didn't have her tied down somehow...

So now I'm off to research whether or not chocolates are a security issue in carry-on baggage...."Ma'am, we'll have to confiscate these..."