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Vehicle LATCH limits
- Thread starter Pixels
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carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
I prefer to err on the side of caution: it's always been a good idea, I think, to go with the lower of two recommendations. I'd install with seatbelts.
For a non-SL seat: Absolutely not. We don't know what the strap and the fasteners are capable of holding. While the LATCH in the car may be capable of holding it, we simply do not know if the LATCH straps are sufficient. The seat wasn't tested that way, after all.
For an SL seat: I'd be absolutely comfortable with that.
For an SL seat: I'd be absolutely comfortable with that.
Pixels
New member
What about a vehicle with manufactuer limit lower than the seat's LATCH limit? Example: Honda (40 pound limit) with a Nautilus (48 pound limit). Child between 40 and 48 pounds.
Or a mythical seat with a 100 pound LATCH limit.
Absolutely not.
We know that SK has done testing on their seats WITH SL. As far as we know, Graco stopped the math at 48 and didn't even bother calculating or testing for a larger dummy.
I'd never suggest/condone/recommend, but I'm less squirrelly about this scenario.
I don't think the vehicle lower anchors would be the failure point. I think the hooks on the LATCH webbing would.
Ah, forgot those existed. That's definitely a grey area. I think that, as far as safety goes, I'd be willing to do so, HOWEVER, that would technically be improper use which means that, were the carseat to fail, the carseat manufacturer and the car manufacturer would hold no liability or responsibility, as I understand. Now, I'm not all sue-happy, but if the carseat holding a child under my care failed, I'd definitely want the manufacturer to be held responsible, if I had done everything in my power to ensure that the seat was properly installed, etc.
So I think that, as far as it goes, in a world where lawsuits and liability didn't exist, I'd be perfectly happy to use a 48 lb latch limit seat on a 40 lb latch limit car (that was post 9/05, obviously), but since we don't live in that world, the potential legal issues would drive me to stick with the limit in the vehicle owner's manual.
So I think that, as far as it goes, in a world where lawsuits and liability didn't exist, I'd be perfectly happy to use a 48 lb latch limit seat on a 40 lb latch limit car (that was post 9/05, obviously), but since we don't live in that world, the potential legal issues would drive me to stick with the limit in the vehicle owner's manual.
crunchierthanthou
New member
If a 41 (or 48) lb child was really in danger due to using LATCH, Honda would bother to, you know... publish it in their manuals.
joolsplus3
Admin - CPS Technician
And Canada would not allow LATCH over certain weights. They allow LATCH the whole way, don't they? To 65 pounds, anyway, I don't think any of their seats go higher than that. (LATCH specs are standard in the whole world, same bars, same distance, same thickness). I wonder how much the top tether plays into that, since most (all) seats require you use it there, and spreading that force out to three points reduces force on the bottom anchors quite a bit.
Pixels
New member
But going on this logic, if a 65 or 80 or 742 pound child was in danger due to using LATCH, all manufacturers would put it in their manuals. Not all manufacturers put it in their manuals, therefore there is no limit on vehicles with unpublished LATCH limits. Which I totally don't believe. There is a limit somewhere, and the vehicle's LATCH anchors will fail before the seatbelt does, so at some point it is safer to switch to a seatbelt install.
We have evidence of at least one instance where the vehicle's lower anchors ripped out and the LATCH on the seat was still fine. Granted, it was a stolen center installation, and over both the vehicle's and the CR's stated LATCH limits. This was a 2007 vehicle.
My point is that I don't think that the margin of error on vehicle anchors is so huge while margin of error on carseat LATCH is so little. I think they're more equal.
joolsplus3
Admin - CPS Technician
When ford did top tether testing (note that top tethers are smaller hardware, doing less work) with car seats, they found the tether hooks on the car seats failed long before the top tether anchors did. So I think that's why seats have limits, while cars really don't. LATCH anchors are plenty strong, but legally they don't have to say anything (thank you, NHTSA), so they don't, from what I understand (might need to whip out the LATCH manual again and study up...)
I think that's more evidence of the fact that using two different halves from two different wholes is pretty dangerous, and significantly drops that 'failure' point.
I don't think the Nautilus is going to fail at 49 pounds with a LATCH installation. But I also don't necessarily believe it would hold at 65 pounds.
LISmama810
Admin - CPS Technician
I've railed about it before...a lot...but I think the whole thing is BS.
Although I wouldn't recommend it to someone else, *I* would use LATCH up to the limits of the seat in any post-Sept-2005 vehicle (and possibly in earlier ones). I strongly believe that actual weight limits are identical in all vehicles and that the stated limits are there to cover their butts.
I believe that if the limit really mattered that much, vehicle manufacturers would do more to make them known, because the average person sure as heck isn't going to have much (if any) way of knowing.
I also believe that if Honda's LATCH is really going to fail at 48 lbs, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable using it at all.
Although I wouldn't recommend it to someone else, *I* would use LATCH up to the limits of the seat in any post-Sept-2005 vehicle (and possibly in earlier ones). I strongly believe that actual weight limits are identical in all vehicles and that the stated limits are there to cover their butts.
I believe that if the limit really mattered that much, vehicle manufacturers would do more to make them known, because the average person sure as heck isn't going to have much (if any) way of knowing.
I also believe that if Honda's LATCH is really going to fail at 48 lbs, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable using it at all.
Pixels
New member
I'm a bit surprised at the range of responses. At one end of the spectrum, there are people who are concerned about going beyond vehicle weight limits, even with a RN SL in a post-9/05 vehicle. Then at the other end, there's LISmama's way of thinking. And of course everything in between.
LISmama810
Admin - CPS Technician
Just goes to show that we really have no idea what we're talking about.
These SHOULDN'T be complicated questions. The truth is out there. Sadly no one seems interested in confirming anything. What ever happened to that LATCH working group? Does it still exist?
BookMama
Senior Community Member
This is pretty much how I feel. However, I follow the rules and install with a seatbelt when the child's weight exceeds the stated LATCH limit of the seat or the vehicle. (And, at this point, that would mean using a seatbelt to install a Radian SL when the child's weight exceeds the LATCH limit of the vehicle.)
I've spoken to a former safety engineer (well know in the CPS field) about this very topic. When I asked her why some vehicles have different LATCH limits, she said they all have the same actual limits, and it's just a matter of what the vehicle manufacturers are willing to accept in terms of liability. (Though, as stated before, if the vehicle manufacturers really cared about the LATCH limit, they'd make the limits available somewhere other than a publication basically known only to CPS techs.
)
safeinthecar
Moderator - CPS Technician
Ahhh, the LATCH hardware itself may be standardized, but the vehicle that hardware is attached to is not. A lot of the LATCH strength is going to depend on where/what/how the hardware is attached to the vehicle.
It's sort of like what we tell people about motor homes. Yes, there are seat belts, and yes, the webbing for all seat belts has to meet a certain standard, but if you attach the seat belts to the plywood, you have a problem.
Not that I think any passenger car has LATCH anchors attached to plywood, just making a point that it is the car manufacturer and only the car manufacturer that knows the expected strength of whatever the LATCH anchors are attached to. IMO, it is highly irresponsible for SK to say that they know more about the vehicles than the people who designed the vehicles do.
carseatcoach
Carseat Crankypants
To be fair, I'm not super-concerned. I think the LATCH will probably hold. I just don't see any reason to test that theory, when carseats can be safely installed with seatbelts.
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