Regarding selling used seats come January 1st, 2012

[selinajean]

Thanks you Trudy. And are you able to tell us who you received this confirmation from? I trust you as a source but others who don't know you are sure to ask us as we pass along the info.

 

[snowbird25ca]

Thanks you Trudy. And are you able to tell us who you received this confirmation from? I trust you as a source but others who don't know you are sure to ask us as we pass along the info.

I got it from my Transport Canada contact and I believe she spoke with her Health Canada contact. I know that she checked in to it after my initial email and this is what I was told today after I checked back for an update.

 

[canadiangie]

1) Is Transport Canada and/or Health Canada going to release a statement to the media about this as January 1, 2012 approaches?


2) Where do the legalities of this start and stop? If someone comes through a clinic having obtained a pre 2012 seat from a friend am I at further increased liability if I work on the seat? For example, if I have a policy that I won't sign off on an non-CMVSS seat (ie: FMVSS or otherwise foreign), should I also adopt a policy of not signing off on a pre 2012 seat that has been obtained illegally? Depending on the type of clinic I'm working at, it's a high percentage of families I see who come through using an albeit safe, non expired, non recalled seat that's been passed down from family or friends. What is the significance of working on a now illegally obtained seat as a technician? Is the legal onus squarely on the parents/caregiver using the seat?

 

[Pixelated]

1)
2) Where do the legalities of this start and stop? If someone comes through a clinic having obtained a pre 2012 seat from a friend am I at further increased liability if I work on the seat? For example, if I have a policy that I won't sign off on an non-CMVSS seat (ie: FMVSS or otherwise foreign), should I also adopt a policy of not signing off on a pre 2012 seat that has been obtained illegally? Depending on the type of clinic I'm working at, it's a high percentage of families I see who come through using an albeit safe, non expired, non recalled seat that's been passed down from family or friends. What is the significance of working on a now illegally obtained seat as a technician? Is the legal onus squarely on the parents/caregiver using the seat?

I would like to know this as well, particularly as I'm mostly doing private checks and am on my own. Yikes.

 

[selinajean]

1) Is Transport Canada and/or Health Canada going to release a statement to the media about this as January 1, 2012 approaches?


2) Where do the legalities of this start and stop? If someone comes through a clinic having obtained a pre 2012 seat from a friend am I at further increased liability if I work on the seat? For example, if I have a policy that I won't sign off on an non-CMVSS seat (ie: FMVSS or otherwise foreign), should I also adopt a policy of not signing off on a pre 2012 seat that has been obtained illegally? Depending on the type of clinic I'm working at, it's a high percentage of families I see who come through using an albeit safe, non expired, non recalled seat that's been passed down from family or friends. What is the significance of working on a now illegally obtained seat as a technician? Is the legal onus squarely on the parents/caregiver using the seat?

I am just taking a guess at this but I would imagine that we would treat it the same as someone coming in with an expired seat. You would document everything to heck (as always) and do your best to inform the parent of what they should be looking for in a new seat. You then teach them to install that expired seat properly so that their baby is as safe as possible when they drive out of that check. What they do after that is up to them. It's not ideal but there are people out there who can not afford a new seat so we are going to continue to see expired, old seats and similarly we will see seats which have been passed down by unlawful means in the future. I will still teach the parents how to install the seat properly; if I don't then the child could be in harm and I am not doing my job.

Jusr my 2 cents.

 

[tam_shops]

Thanks so much!

Guess I should stop debating and get to selling that 30#RF MA I have...Really wanted ODS to RF until 6yo though! LOL

Seriously though, if no one (currently) ever does (that I've ever heard) anything about the OH shields FS or the 20# Pegs on CL, how and why would they start prosecuting people for selling a 2009 MA b/c it's not 2012 compliant? And, the loaning of, that is out right ridiculous, if they are so *bad* you can loan them, then they should all be recalled! LOL Guess I'm thinking more about the logical and environmental aspect of all this. I have no problem w/ them not being aloud to make them, sell them in stores, ok fine, but....sigh, I think it's starting to get a bit silly! Glad I sold my other MA, was debating keeping this one for YDS for a spare...

tam

 

[PurpleCat]

This got complicated.

Thanks for all the info ladies.

 

[bubbaray]

This is really just craziness. Health Canada can't even keep our food supply safe and they want to stop people from lending out unexpired, perfectly safe child restraints? Seriously. That is insane.

Good luck enforcing it.

 

[snowbird25ca]

1) Is Transport Canada and/or Health Canada going to release a statement to the media about this as January 1, 2012 approaches?


2) Where do the legalities of this start and stop? If someone comes through a clinic having obtained a pre 2012 seat from a friend am I at further increased liability if I work on the seat? For example, if I have a policy that I won't sign off on an non-CMVSS seat (ie: FMVSS or otherwise foreign), should I also adopt a policy of not signing off on a pre 2012 seat that has been obtained illegally? Depending on the type of clinic I'm working at, it's a high percentage of families I see who come through using an albeit safe, non expired, non recalled seat that's been passed down from family or friends. What is the significance of working on a now illegally obtained seat as a technician? Is the legal onus squarely on the parents/caregiver using the seat?

1) That one I'm not sure, but I certainly hope so. I know that there was a letter already distributed by health Canada regarding the hazardous products act and how car seats fit in to it. (I think I quoted it in a post before, if not I'm pretty sure I emailed it to you?) I didn't gather the "loan or give away" part when I read it - but had understood the selling and advertising part and believed it to include used as well as new.

2) I don't have a good answer for you on this one. I know that I have an extremely high level of discomfort in helping parents with used seats as it is. But this does add an additional level to that.

Bottom line, we won't know for sure who got their pre-2012 seat from a store and who just had it given to them by a friend or family member. And how a parent communicates the history of the seat can vary too - I mean, what if someone buys a seat for a child on sale, and then gives it to the parent after the baby is born and the baby comes on January 1st? The seat is brand new in box, never been used - and yet by the "give away" part, would be technically illegal because the parents didn't buy it for themselves. Where does that leave us? The parent is going to say they're the original owners - and for all intents and purposes, they are.

I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for you on this one, but I'll give Allport a head's up on this question.

It's very difficult when you're working with people who simply don't have money. It's easy to say that someone should just put $5 aside a week or some other strategy, but the reality is that kids have medicines and other things come up and for a family who already barely makes ends meet even $50 or $60 can be a burden. Should it be a burden when they have watched their nephew outgrow the seat and possibly even used it in their own car regularly over the last few months?

I honestly don't know Angie. I don't have any good answers for you and I truly wish I did. Perhaps I'm just too much of a softie at heart... but we've got a lot of people who have *just* bought new seats with them being on sale - and if some people are buying them with the plans of being gifts? Well, it just raises way more questions than I have answers for...

 

[snowbird25ca]

I am just taking a guess at this but I would imagine that we would treat it the same as someone coming in with an expired seat. You would document everything to heck (as always) and do your best to inform the parent of what they should be looking for in a new seat. You then teach them to install that expired seat properly so that their baby is as safe as possible when they drive out of that check. What they do after that is up to them. It's not ideal but there are people out there who can not afford a new seat so we are going to continue to see expired, old seats and similarly we will see seats which have been passed down by unlawful means in the future. I will still teach the parents how to install the seat properly; if I don't then the child could be in harm and I am not doing my job.

Jusr my 2 cents.

I recently had a discussion about helping a parent with a US seat who didn't want to replace it. She'd ordered it from the US not knowing it was illegal, and had already been using it. She knew it was illegal, and likely could've paid to buy a new seat given my conversation with her. But she didn't want to.

I know that there were problems in the car - I could tell based on what she said on the phone. But I had a very in depth discussion with somebody surrounding the issue, and the bottom line I came away with was that it was best to not book the appointment in the first place. If a parent is choosing to transport their child in an illegal seat, and already knows they're putting their kid at risk, what is the likelihood that they're going to use the seat properly?

I've done the same with European seats in the past, but its a lot easier to turn down helping someone when you're not familiar with a seat. While the goal may be to have a child leave safer than they arrived, if you're talking about a family with the ability to replace the seat and who has the knowledge that it's illegal, but just can't be bothered? Well... I could appreciate the point and it wasn't a liability I was willing to take on.

I do feel the same way about expired carseats - they shouldn't be used period. Enabling a parent to use them "better" is just like helping someone pack a parachute that you know has holes in it. Sure, it may be in there right, and they may even where it right - but it's not going to do it's job properly... and I don't want to be the one who packed up the parachute full of holes knowing that it wasn't safe but settling on documenting it instead of telling the parent they outright had to get a new parachute and I couldn't help them in the current circumstances.

I know it's harsh, but in those circumstances, I don't have any doubts.

However - a 9 month old seat that your niece just grew out of and she wants to give it to you? Well... I understand the basic premise, and yet I just can't see the logistics nor can I truly understand the "give away or loan" part unless there is more to the story?

Anyways... I'm in as much shock as everyone else over that part and the only thing I can think of is there's going to have to be some public education planned if they hope for people to even know about this.

 

[bubbaray]

It's very difficult when you're working with people who simply don't have money. It's easy to say that someone should just put $5 aside a week or some other strategy, but the reality is that kids have medicines and other things come up and for a family who already barely makes ends meet even $50 or $60 can be a burden.

There are very few/any harnessed restraints in Canada for $50-60. I can't think of one off the top of my head, only boosters. Even a Scenara is $79 at Walmart last time I checked (which admittedly was a while ago).

How will inspectors/police even police this -- if a parent can't produce a receipt, will they be fined for using a seat they can't prove they purchased? There is no way to know if a seat has been loaned vs purchased, other than a receipt.

 

[snowbird25ca]

There are very few/any harnessed restraints in Canada for $50-60. I can't think of one off the top of my head, only boosters. Even a Scenara is $79 at Walmart last time I checked (which admittedly was a while ago).

How will inspectors/police even police this -- if a parent can't produce a receipt, will they be fined for using a seat they can't prove they purchased? There is no way to know if a seat has been loaned vs purchased, other than a receipt.

It's not a ticket thing when it falls under health Canada. But the scenera does go on sale for $59 semi-regularly at Wal-mart.

 

[selinajean]

1)


It's very difficult when you're working with people who simply don't have money. It's easy to say that someone should just put $5 aside a week or some other strategy, but the reality is that kids have medicines and other things come up and for a family who already barely makes ends meet even $50 or $60 can be a burden. Should it be a burden when they have watched their nephew outgrow the seat and possibly even used it in their own car regularly over the last few months?

I do feel the same way about expired carseats - they shouldn't be used period. Enabling a parent to use them "better" is just like helping someone pack a parachute that you know has holes in it. Sure, it may be in there right, and they may even where it right - but it's not going to do it's job properly... and I don't want to be the one who packed up the parachute full of holes knowing that it wasn't safe but settling on documenting it instead of telling the parent they outright had to get a new parachute and I couldn't help them in the current circumstances.

I know it's harsh, but in those circumstances, I don't have any doubts.

I cut out a lot of the quoted posts so that this one isn't a page long but I wanted to address this in relation to what I was saying before. Expired seats are being used, that's just the reality of the world that we live in. Some people can afford to buy a new seat and of course I would always push for that but there are some people who are in that situation that you described where they can not afford that new seat. We need to be able to read the situation. For some families the choice is a new car seat or food for their children. I'm not comfortable pushing them to make that choice just so I can do a seat check for them. If the choice really truly comes down to an expired seat or no seat at all, I think the choice is pretty obvious. And just because a family is in that financial situation I don't think it is fair for me to say that I can't help them. I know that not everyone is comfortable making that decision to help out though and that is fine.

 

[bubbaray]

When family finances are that tight, I'd waaaaay rather a family choose a "loaned" or "purchased from a reliable source" unexpired appropriate seat vs an expired seat, no seat at all, or no food on the table for the children.

Seriously, Health Canada will have no ability to enforce this, just like they don't have the ability to enforce the "no walkers" rule for babies. I know all sorts of people who have them, either purchased on CL, given to them from others, imported from the USA.

I've never seen the Scenara on sale at Walmart in BC for $59. I'm only infrequently in their baby section (usually to check out seats), but I do scan their flyers. I've never seen a Scenara in Canada for under $79.

 

[sailingdaddy]

Bumping this up. I've received confirmation that it will be illegal to sell, advertise, loan or give away non-compliant seats as of January 1st, 2012.

Based on what legal grounds? Preventing people from selling what they own is a quite serious limitation of freedom.

Canada seems more into fiddling with details, than doing something that really matters as far as childrens safety in cars like requiring all seats up to 40 pounds to be rear-facing only? If they can make their own rules, why not something that makes a difference....

/Marcus

 

[canadiangie]

Right now the walmart scenera is 59 dollars, but I had assumed they were being cleared out due to the '12 regs. Prior to that I'd seen it go down as low as 64.97 iirc.

When family finances are that tight, I'd waaaaay rather a family choose a "loaned" or "purchased from a reliable source" unexpired appropriate seat vs an expired seat, no seat at all, or no food on the table for the children.

Seriously, Health Canada will have no ability to enforce this, just like they don't have the ability to enforce the "no walkers" rule for babies. I know all sorts of people who have them, either purchased on CL, given to them from others, imported from the USA.

I've never seen the Scenara on sale at Walmart in BC for $59. I'm only infrequently in their baby section (usually to check out seats), but I do scan their flyers. I've never seen a Scenara in Canada for under $79.

 

[Keeanh]

Based on what legal grounds? Preventing people from selling what they own is a quite serious limitation of freedom.

Canada seems more into fiddling with details, than doing something that really matters as far as childrens safety in cars like requiring all seats up to 40 pounds to be rear-facing only? If they can make their own rules, why not something that makes a difference....

/Marcus

You're right, it is a limitation of personal freedom, but it can't be enforced anyways. Seems like Transport Canada probably just didn't think through the details very clearly. And forcing all children under 40lbs to RF would be a harsh limitation on some families too in certain circumstances.

I just have to ask, out of curiosity, were you intending to criticize Canada for being too "Big Brother", or were you perhaps warning us? Or maybe I misunderstood the tone of your comment.

 

[bubbaray]

This is such a stupid rule. I need to find someone to loan some seats out to after January 1, 2012 just to protest.

Anyone need a Radian or Nautilus?

 

[tam_shops]

I could use a RN for the next year or so, then ODS can stay RF past 6.

It must be illegal to sell expired seats like the ones we all see on CL...and nothing has stopped or even slowed that down...Though, when I put my MA on CL last night, I did notice they added a line about not being aloud to sell drop side cribs, so add that line about car seats and it will slow some people down...

And, after only being up for one day, I have 2 CL enquirers about my MA, which I thought was rather over-priced at $150 w/ 3yrs left on it. Though, one person offered me $100 and I'm kind of on the fence about that. Of course, I'd be able to buy a spare Maestro for YDS for that, next sale...Shame paying for shipping in Canada is so crazy $$, doesn't make anything but a local sale worth it...

I think the trick for techs is to not ask where the seat came from and if someone starts to tell them, just say, "I'm sorry, I can't install this seat if you tell me you borrowed it or bought it 2nd hand" and most intelligent people will just say nothing. This removes the liability from the tech and lets them install reasonable seats. Really, if these pre-2012 seats are so *dangerous* that we can't loan them out, they should all be re-called and repaired...and we all know that isn't going to happen!

tam

 

[Keeanh]

This is such a stupid rule. I need to find someone to loan some seats out to after January 1, 2012 just to protest.

Anyone need a Radian or Nautilus?

I already have a Radian, but I could give the Nautilus a shot, LOL. Glad I'm not the only one who will be protesting. My SIL has my TF. I still can't figure out if it will be illegal for her to return it to me after January. Regardless, my other SIL needs it when she's done. Is it illegal to give a seat to someone else if it wasn't your seat to begin with? (IOW, can one SIL give other SIL my seat?)