Would you install a RN SL with super LATCH beyond stated vehicle LATCH limits?

[stephpook]

The vehicle in this case is a 2007 Honda Odyssey (so a 40 pound LATCH limit). FF LATCH installation with the Radian is easy both in the 2nd row drivers side captain's chair and the third row center. Seatbelt installation is another story. Haven't tried the captain's chairs, but third row center with seatbelt was a no go (for me at least). I was able to get it in with a seatbelt third row passenger side outboard, but not without a lot of time and effort. I am drooling at the thought of not ever having to worry about a Radian seatbelt install in my van again.

My 4-year old needs a new seat in my parents van (he's outgrown his 40-pound harnessed seat) and I'm trying to decide between buying a second Radian for my van (an SL of course) and giving my parents his EFTA to use in their car or having them buy another EFTA. I love my Radian but I hate installing it. The EFTA is a fairly easy install in just about every car I've tried it in (seatbelt or LATCH) and I don't really want to give that up unless I know I can use the super LATCH with the Radian.

I know what Sunshine Kids says, what I'm curious about is what you guys think. I'm kind of sensing some hesitation about SL because using it past stated limits means going against vehicle manufacturer guidelines.

For the record, I did have a customer service rep from Honda tell me this past spring that Honda does not have a LATCH limit even after I explained to her that the car seat in question harnessed past 40 pounds. My vehicle manual does not list a limit.

All thoughts and opinions are appreciated!

Sorry - forgot to mention in the poll that using the SL past the limit assumes the car was manufactured after September 1, 2005.

 

[Judi]

I have been working with someone else to get some info. As of today, no, I would not. So far, we have only heard back from Ford.

 

[carseatcoach]

If I could not get an acceptable seatbelt installation and there was no other seat available.

 

[featherhead]

Is the 2007 a lot different that the 2008? My parents have a 2008 with leather seats, and we've been able to get a Radian FF in all three top tether spots. It might have a tiny bit of wiggle, but definitely acceptable.

 

[abbi_n_nadia]

Hmm...interesting...I hadn't thought about whether or not everyone would be comfortable using the SL in a vehicle that states not to use latch beyond a certain weight!

Just curious but does Toyota state a certain weight to stop using latch? I need to check our manual (my dd is only 29lbs so we are ok for now).

 

[Pixels]

As a tech, I can't recommend that you disregard your manufacturer's stated limits. However, in your case Honda doesn't list a limit in their manuals, and doesn't give a limit when you talk to CS, yet there is that limit in the LATCH manual. It's a gray area, which means it's parental decision.

Personally, the more conservative thing to do would be to use a seatbelt install. If you can get a good seatbelt install, use it, we know that that's strong enough. On the other hand, SKJP has looked at the forces that their seat puts on the anchors with an 85 pound dummy, looked at the vehicle minimum standard, and come to the conclusion that any vehicle that meets the standard will hold the seat. SK has stated that you can disregard your vehicle limits, which puts the liability squarely on them. I don't think they would take that risk unless they were confident in their product.

But still, I would do a seatbelt install if possible, because it is the more conservative route.

 

[AtTheSouthDam]

I have been working with someone else to get some info. As of today, no, I would not. So far, we have only heard back from Ford.

What did Ford say?

I'm tempted. Not having to use the seat belt in the middle row makes it a lot easier to get into the back row. I am thinking of getting a SL just for that reason.

 

[NannyMom]

I have been working with someone else to get some info. As of today, no, I would not. So far, we have only heard back from Ford.

What did Ford say?

Hmm...interesting...I hadn't thought about whether or not everyone would be comfortable using the SL in a vehicle that states not to use latch beyond a certain weight!

Just curious but does Toyota state a certain weight to stop using latch? I need to check our manual (my dd is only 29lbs so we are ok for now).

Toyota defers to the carseat manufacturer.

 

[stephpook]

I have been working with someone else to get some info. As of today, no, I would not. So far, we have only heard back from Ford.

I hope you hear back from everyone soon. I would be really interested to hear what Honda has to say about this.

Is the 2007 a lot different that the 2008? My parents have a 2008 with leather seats, and we've been able to get a Radian FF in all three top tether spots. It might have a tiny bit of wiggle, but definitely acceptable.

I can't imagine there are that many differences between the two model years. I definitely couldn't get it installed third row center with the seatbelt and I tried on two separate occasions. Since I could get it in outboard, that's where I left it.

My 2007 does have top tether anchors in all five rear seating positions but LATCH in only three - does the 2008 not have all five top tether anchors?

As a tech, I can't recommend that you disregard your manufacturer's stated limits. However, in your case Honda doesn't list a limit in their manuals, and doesn't give a limit when you talk to CS, yet there is that limit in the LATCH manual. It's a gray area, which means it's parental decision.

Personally, the more conservative thing to do would be to use a seatbelt install. If you can get a good seatbelt install, use it, we know that that's strong enough. On the other hand, SKJP has looked at the forces that their seat puts on the anchors with an 85 pound dummy, looked at the vehicle minimum standard, and come to the conclusion that any vehicle that meets the standard will hold the seat. SK has stated that you can disregard your vehicle limits, which puts the liability squarely on them. I don't think they would take that risk unless they were confident in their product.

But still, I would do a seatbelt install if possible, because it is the more conservative route.

And herein lies my dilemma. My thought is if a tech won't do it, maybe I shouldn't do it either.

I can get the Radian in the third row outboard seat with the seatbelt with a lot of effort (twisting the buckle stalk, reclining the vehicle seat, and putting the Radian recline foot down all help) and it's usually pretty tight by the time I'm done with it. It's the integrity of the seatbelt, vehicle seat, and child restraint that I worry about because of all the forces exerted to get the thing in there. I don't think the seatbelt in that seating position will ever be the same (we have my 6-year old's Monterey in that seating position now).

I suppose the smart thing would be to try and install the Radian in one of the captains chairs with the seatbelt and see if it's any easier. That would certainly make me feel better.

 

[featherhead]

I can't imagine there are that many differences between the two model years. I definitely couldn't get it installed third row center with the seatbelt and I tried on two separate occasions. Since I could get it in outboard, that's where I left it.

My 2007 does have top tether anchors in all five rear seating positions but LATCH in only three - does the 2008 not have all five top tether anchors?

Sorry, yeah it has the 5 top tethers. I just keep confusing myself because of a carseat dilemma we had at one point

 

[emtb79]

I would like to know too. Has anyone found out anything more.

 

[LISmama810]

I'd do it.

Vehicle LATCH limits are completely arbitrary (well, largely arbitrary). The LATCH systems all meet the same standards, yet the manufacturers state limits ranging from 39 lbs to 60 lbs to "whatever."

If Subaru's LATCH won't fail at 48 lbs, neither will Honda's.

It's all a bunch of legal CYA.

The car seat's LATCH connectors will fail long before the car's anchors. So if Sunshine Kids is fine with using LATCH to 80 lbs, great. Frankly, no kid will make it much past the higher-end LATCH limits anyway (no where near 80 lbs), so at some point it becomes more of a hypothetical anyway.

And yes, Honda has no idea what its LATCH limits are or whether it even has any. The engineer Safe Ride News uses for the LATCH Manual claims 40, and I believe him, but most people don't have access to him, so they go with what the manufacturer tells them, which changes each time you call.

 

[amyd]

I'm not sure. I have a Honda & a LATCH manual so I know that the limit is 40lbs. But your average joe Honda owner has no way of knowing what the limit is or even that there is one. So if average joe Honda owner buys a restraint that says you can LATCH it to 80lbs, why on earth wouldn't he?? This is a situation where I'm not sure if my knowledge is power or just a PITA

 

[BABYGIRLLYNDSEY]

Ok tech's I'm confused about this. Our Uplander and Explorer have 48 lb latch limits. So I can use our Frontier and Nautilus up to 48 lbs with latch right? If I bought a Radian XT (old version) I could use latch up to 48 lbs?

If I bought Radian XTSL could I use the latch over the 48 lb limit? I thought that was why super latch was invented to use beyond the 48 lb limit? Can someone enlighten me on this.

I'm confused.

 

[Pixels]

I'd do it.

Vehicle LATCH limits are completely arbitrary (well, largely arbitrary). The LATCH systems all meet the same standards, yet the manufacturers state limits ranging from 39 lbs to 60 lbs to "whatever."

If Subaru's LATCH won't fail at 48 lbs, neither will Honda's.

It's all a bunch of legal CYA.

The car seat's LATCH connectors will fail long before the car's anchors. So if Sunshine Kids is fine with using LATCH to 80 lbs, great. Frankly, no kid will make it much past the higher-end LATCH limits anyway (no where near 80 lbs), so at some point it becomes more of a hypothetical anyway.

And yes, Honda has no idea what its LATCH limits are or whether it even has any. The engineer Safe Ride News uses for the LATCH Manual claims 40, and I believe him, but most people don't have access to him, so they go with what the manufacturer tells them, which changes each time you call.

I understand about the limits being fairly arbitrary. The forces placed on the anchors are affected by many factors, the two largest being the speed of the crash and the weight on the anchors. Higher speed and lower weight child may be the same force as lower speed and higher weight child.

However, you cannot say that if Subaru's anchors won't fail that Honda's won't. The LATCH standard is a minimum. The manufacturers can and do exceed those limits. I'm sure that different manufacturers exceed those limits by different amounts, so it is quite possible that Subaru's anchors can hold significantly more than Honda's, or vice versa.

Also, in the past it may have been true that the carseat's LATCH connectors would fail before the vehicle's, but with SL, the carseat's connector is substantially stronger, so it is likely that it may no longer be true for this seat.

In the TC tests, I saw an instance the vehicle's lower anchor ripping out. Granted, it was borrowing LATCH in a Honda (no borrowing allowed), above Honda's 40 pound limit, with a Regent, so there are several reasons why the that anchor might have failed. However, it is enough to give me pause. The dummy was over the 40 pound limit with a heavy seat, but the Radian is also a heavy seat, and the dummy wasn't that heavy.

Also, the LATCH standard and vehicle manufacturers weren't thinking about 80 pound child plus 20-some (22?) pound carseat. The original LATCH standard was written for a 40 pound child plus seat. They have strengthened the LATCH standard over the years, and at the same time carseats have raised the weight limits, but none that I know of have gone beyond 48 pounds with LATCH up until now. 48 pounds to 80 pounds is a big jump, and the vehicle manufacturers need time to figure out that this seat exists, analyze what it means, and do whatever testing they need to do in order to figure out if it's a problem or not. In the meantime, their legal butts are already covered so there's not a big rush from them.

 

[Mae]

If I bought Radian XTSL could I use the latch over the 48 lb limit? I thought that was why super latch was invented to use beyond the 48 lb limit? Can someone enlighten me on this.

Yep. The SL's are saying that you can use LATCH beyond the car's recommendations, up to 80lbs, as long as the vehicle was manufactured on or after September 1, 2005.

That's why this thread was made, to see who actually would and who would feel comfortable using LATCH beyond the vehicles guidelines in the manual. :thumbsup:

Be sure that you are looking at the vehicle's manufacture date, not the model year. To see what manu date your vehicle is, there is a plate on edge of your driver door frame. I believe it's the same plate where it states your tire PSI and such.

 

[LISmama810]

Ok tech's I'm confused about this. Our Uplander and Explorer have 48 lb latch limits. So I can use our Frontier and Nautilus up to 48 lbs with latch right? If I bought a Radian XT (old version) I could use latch up to 48 lbs?

If I bought Radian XTSL could I use the latch over the 48 lb limit? I thought that was why super latch was invented to use beyond the 48 lb limit? Can someone enlighten me on this.

I'm confused.

I think the Frontier has a 40-lb limit, so you have to defer to the lower weight.

You have thus rest of it right.

The debate becomes whether Sunshine Kids can trump the vehicle's LATCH limits. (Reminder: SK says Super LATCH can be used to the weight limits of the seat in vehicles MANUFACTURED after Sept 1, 2005.)

 

[LISmama810]

I understand about the limits being fairly arbitrary. The forces placed on the anchors are affected by many factors, the two largest being the speed of the crash and the weight on the anchors. Higher speed and lower weight child may be the same force as lower speed and higher weight child.

However, you cannot say that if Subaru's anchors won't fail that Honda's won't. The LATCH standard is a minimum. The manufacturers can and do exceed those limits. I'm sure that different manufacturers exceed those limits by different amounts, so it is quite possible that Subaru's anchors can hold significantly more than Honda's, or vice versa.

Do you know that manufacturers go above and beyond, or are you speculating that they might?

It was a bit disingenuous of me to throw Subaru out there, since they've now revised their limit to say that the 60 lbs includes the weight of the kid. (Or does it? Depends who you ask.)

I still contend that all cars have the same limit but don't know it. 40, 48...they just all interpret it differently (weight with kid, without, etc.)

The limits were implemented when seats only went to 40 lbs, and vehicle manufacturers are slow to make any changes when it comes to protecting children.

So that begs the question, too, about cars that defer to the CR manufacturer. When they decided that, did they take into consideration that there would be 30-lb seats that can (theoretically) hold 80-lb kids?

Throw into the mix that very few manufacturers put this info in their manuals, and I'm inclined to believe that the limits really don't matter that much.

 

[emtb79]

My mom brought up a thought. I thought it was an interesting thought so I figured I would share. Car manufactures(most) say the lower anchors are rated to 40lb or whatever( Ive got a 2007 Honda ODY) however they say at 40 use the seat belt and the top tether can continued to be used(i dont know the limit).

SO now I get to her point she said "say the lower anchors fall in an accident but it is tethered they would at least keep the car seat flying forward and all around the van, right?" Seeing as in would be placed in the third row/center position with a car seat seat belted next to it wouldnt get a chance to really slosh side to side.

 

[Mae]

My mom brought up a thought. I thought it was an interesting thought so I figured I would share. Car manufactures(most) say the lower anchors are rated to 40lb or whatever( Ive got a 2007 Honda ODY) however they say at 40 use the seat belt and the top tether can continued to be used(i dont know the limit).

SO now I get to her point she said "say the lower anchors fall in an accident but it is tethered they would at least keep the car seat flying forward and all around the van, right?" Seeing as in would be placed in the third row/center position with a car seat seat belted next to it wouldnt get a chance to really slosh side to side.

So what you're saying is that if you used the lower anchors beyond the limit & had it top tethered, the lower anchors then failed, it would be ok? Because the top tether would "hold it"? And that it wouldn't really get a chance to "slosh side to side"?

First of all, lets do some math here, to help us all think about crash forces. To think about how much pressure is being put on that top tether (since the lower anchors have failed) you have to take the speed of the car, times the weight of the child plus the car seat This will give you the amt of weight being pressured onto the top tether. (Right?!)

So, lets say Child weighs 45lbs, car seat weighs 20lbs, and you were going 40mph. That is 2,600 POUNDS of pressure & strain being put on that top tether. Keeping in mind that a top tether strap is roughly 1.5-2 inches long, and all it is is seatbelt webbing. Also keeping in mind, that top tethers have a limit too. However, you should usually disregard the top tether limit because there's still a chance it would work, keeping your child safer. However, what if the top tether fails too? I mean, after all, there's roughy 2,600 pounds of strain being put on some simple seatbelt webbing.

So you'e saying that it won't "slosh around much" because "there's a car seat belted next to it?"