News This 2 Month old not so lucky

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QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
If it weren't for the fact that those parents are living a personal hell right now, I'd say I wish they would be charged with their child's death.

-Nicole.
 

simplychels

New member
If it weren't for the fact that those parents are living a personal hell right now, I'd say I wish they would be charged with their child's death.

-Nicole.

They very likely could be charged. Especially if the child wasnt restrained at all. If it was just gross misuse then, well, who knows if charges would happen. I bet charges that stem from situations like this just arent published a lot, but do happen.

Poor baby. That dang "it'll never happen to us" syndrome just needs a cure already.

I feel for the family. What a horrible thing to go through
 

canadiangie

New member
Just asking dh a few questions about cases like these.

The biggest issue in cases like this is proving intent. With alcohol not being a factor and no mention of dangerous driving, it really comes down to a provincial charge.. it's not really a criminal/federal matter based on what the Journal has reported so far. Crown could push for manslaughter, but it's not likely. A provincial charge of having a child unrestrained might apply; the penalty dependent on the judge.

When it comes right down to it, these parents will suffer the rest of their lives, with or without EPS and/or Crown getting involved. It's just so sad. :(

If there are charges I hope it gets posted. I'm curious now.
 

QuassEE

Moderator - CPST Instructor
There doesn't have to be intent to be charged here. Just negligence.

Look at that mom who was charged for her baby's death in Seattle a year or two ago. She had a RF infant seat in front of an airbag and two FF children in the back...

-Nicole.
 

canadiangie

New member
There doesn't have to be intent to be charged here. Just negligence.

Look at that mom who was charged for her baby's death in Seattle a year or two ago. She had a RF infant seat in front of an airbag and two FF children in the back...

-Nicole.


But the charge would be provincial, not federal. Not using a car seat in Canada isn't a federal/criminal matter, unfortunately. Unless it can be proven that these parents had intent to harm their child things sort of fall back towards it being a provincial matter. The liklihood of getting a manslaughter charge is slim, unfortunately. I'm not pretending to actually know these things btw, my comments are based off a conversation with dh. He can list mulitple cases of vehicular death (some involving children) where without intent (alcohol, dangerous driving, etc) there really isn't anywhere to go in terms of hardcore federal charges.

A charge of criminal negligence has to involve a criminal act. Not using a car seat (at all, or using it incorrectly) is not a criminal matter in Canada.

Okay, so then you go back to it being a provincial matter.

There is a small window that might apply that involves not providing the necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing) the charge known as endangering a life of a child / failing to provide the necessities of life, however not using a car seat is a big leap. Maybe though.

It's also a big leap from careless driving (provincial code) to dangerous driving (criminal/federal code). So even if EPS finds these parents to have been driving carelessly it's still only a provincial charge and the outcome would be handed down by a judge. It probably wouldn't involve jail time. But it could be something like a $2k fine with loss of license for a year. (or something to that affect)


Now, keep in mind the Journal has so far reported very little about this case, and often further details are never released to the media. It's all speculation at this point, though it's certainly significant that EPS has reported no obvious cause to this collision.

If there is an applicable charge EPS will lay it. If they have witnesses, or they get blood samples back, or if they can come up with anything at all, they will do their best. There might be a civil lawsuit (grandparents sue baby's parents sort of thing). But the chances of anything happening similar to what we see in the US? Probably not.

Dh says that if he's wrong he'll be happy to be wrong, but he's pretty sure EPS will be stuck between a rock and hard place on this one, barring intent... which may surface but hasn't been reported and may never be. Again, if they are charged I'd like to know with what. And I'd like to know the outcome (often much different than the actual charge).


Again, a really sad case. Poor little baby. And this poor family. No one can win here.
 

canmom

New member
I'm going to go out on a limb. I think the parents should seek action against the province/health regions/police what have you for their lack of doing ANYTHING constructive in this province in regards to child passenger safety :twocents:.

I find it ironic that Edmonton stopped all seat check events within the last few months (Trudy, confirmation pls) and now we have a 2 month old baby dead. I can't help but wonder if those parents would have attended a clinic if they would have been available to them (if it was a misused seat).
 

canadiangie

New member
I'm going to go out on a limb. I think the parents should seek action against the province/health regions/police what have you for their lack of doing ANYTHING constructive in this province in regards to child passenger safety :twocents:.

I find it ironic that Edmonton stopped all seat check events within the last few months (Trudy, confirmation pls) and now we have a 2 month old baby dead. I can't help put wonder if those parents would have attended a clinic if they would have been available to them (if it was a misused seat).

Ding Ding Ding!

We have a winner.

:mad:
 

Kat_Shoshin

New member
This is the suckiest part of our job... to KNOW that what we say and do sometimes just falls on deaf ears. Surely to god these parents knew they should use a carseat... they must have been told at least when they left the hospital.

I hope it was at least misuse so that they can help educate others when they feel the need to do something in memory of their baby. If they didn't use a seat at all, well, then they knew better.:mad:
 

Kat_Shoshin

New member
Just found this story update:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/2010/02/04/12747931.html


While police have said preliminary investigations indicate the child might not have been strapped into her car seat properly, her father says that’s not true.

“She was properly strapped in and I pulled her out,” he said with a wavering voice.

“She’s my baby girl ... We would never put her in (that) position. I told them that.”

Police continue to investigate.


I wasn't there, but this sounds like the police are doubtful.
 

dogmelissa

New member
Ok, I'm not tech, but I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where a vehicle rolls, ends up on it's roof (was it??) and "my girl was still hanging inside the straps, though the seat was tilted. I grabbed her and unbuckled the seat myself." ... if a child is HANGING inside the straps and the seat is tilted, this sounds to me like the seat wasn't installed tight enough AND the harness straps weren't tight enough. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, I wasn't there, I have no idea the severity of the crash or if there's a possibility the mother's body next to the seat may have affected anything.

It sounds like she died of a head injury, like shaken baby syndrome, so I have my doubts that this kind of injury really could have been prevented even if the seat was or wasn't installed/used properly.

What I do hear though is that there might be a potential to charge the father with driving without due care and attention or whatever it's called, as he clearly was going too fast for the conditions and probably following too closely as well - otherwise he wouldn't have had to PANIC when the vehicle in front of him braked on an icy road.

Regardless, it just makes me sad that it's always the children, the innocent ones, who end up suffering in these situations. A tiny little baby has lost her life; regardless of what the justice system does with the parents, that little girl will never be brought back, and that's the saddest part of all.

Rest in Peace, little Huda.

Melissa
 

Pixels

New member
Ok, I'm not tech, but I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where a vehicle rolls, ends up on it's roof (was it??) and "my girl was still hanging inside the straps, though the seat was tilted. I grabbed her and unbuckled the seat myself." ... if a child is HANGING inside the straps and the seat is tilted, this sounds to me like the seat wasn't installed tight enough AND the harness straps weren't tight enough. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, I wasn't there, I have no idea the severity of the crash or if there's a possibility the mother's body next to the seat may have affected anything.

It sounds like she died of a head injury, like shaken baby syndrome, so I have my doubts that this kind of injury really could have been prevented even if the seat was or wasn't installed/used properly.

Seatbelts stretch under crash forces. A seat that was properly installed will be loose after a crash of any significant force. Same with harnesses, they stretch even more than seatbelts. Also, if the seat was installed with a lap/shoulder belt locked at the retractor, I'm not surprised the seat tilted.

It's also possible that the mother's body next to the seat may have struck the child and/or child restraint. Even if Mom was properly restrained, it's easy for the upper body to move out sideways from behind a shoulder belt towards the buckle.
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I want to know what made the police to say that she was improperly secured in the carseat prior to the crash.

Father had removed the baby from the seat and flagged for help and waited for the police and ambulance to arrive. It's a serious allegation on the police part, imo, unless the carseat was grossly improperly used (eg. ff infant seat). If improper use as in loose harness, there is just no way you can tell or allege when the baby was already out of the seat by the time the police arrived.

And it's not inconceivable for a little baby be traumatized or killed as the result of shaking syndrome. That SUV rolled multiple times on hard frozen ground, probably over snow banks and into the ditch. There is not shock-absorbing feature in a roll-over, is there? So all that energy was transferred into the vehicle and into the passengers. A wee little body, rf or ff, would substain so much injuries from that.

And aren't we all told that the brain is as fragile as jello? A few jiggles might aggetate it but if you put a container with jello and throw it against the wall or on the floor and see how that jello ends up.

If the police made that allegation w/o basis, sue the pants off the province and the city just for added stress to the family, along with failure to provide basic care for carseat safety.

:2cents:
 

mommycat

Well-known member
It's hard to know what really happened just by reading news reports, but when I read
"Preliminary investigations indicate the child had not been properly secured in a child safety seat."

"How can they say that?" the distraught father asked Thursday. "She was strapped into the seat, as usual, as it should be. My wife was right beside her."
My first thought was, he thinks she was in correctly but what does that really mean when we so much misuse? Just because he believed she was strapped in fine, doesn't mean that the harness wasn't loose, with a headhugger and a winter snowsuit, with a loose install, or whatever, causing more force to transfer to her body as she was jerked back and forth more as a result of loose fit. On the other hand, whether having all this perfect really would have helped in a multiple rollover, I will leave that to the investigators to try to figure out. It is possible that even strapped in 100% correct, she would have had these same severe head/neck injuries. :( Another thought that crossed my mind was that, and this easier said than done, but that he should have waited for emerg crews instead of taking her out of the seat. Did he provide proper support to her head/neck (most likely not since they thought she was ok) and did moving her around cause more damage?

So very very sad. :(
 

birdflippin'

New member
Sad :( But I want to chime in on the shaken baby syndrome angle. I was in a roll over in a '00 Civic when my oldest was barely 3 months old. The car landed on it's roof. It was March and I rolled into the ditch full of snow. Anyway, my oldest was upside down in his seat. I removed the seat from the base and waited for EMS to show up before removing him. They said he was fine, but I had the harness straps too loose while putting 3 fingers between him and the straps. So while there is a difference in the head control of a 2 month and 3 month old, the straps in my non-tech opinion would have to be pretty loose for that to happen meaning the poor girl was not properly secured in her seat.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I'm going to go out on a limb. I think the parents should seek action against the province/health regions/police what have you for their lack of doing ANYTHING constructive in this province in regards to child passenger safety :twocents:.

I find it ironic that Edmonton stopped all seat check events within the last few months (Trudy, confirmation pls) and now we have a 2 month old baby dead. I can't help but wonder if those parents would have attended a clinic if they would have been available to them (if it was a misused seat).

It will be a year this June since the last carseat clinics were done.

It would be nice to see the parents go public with how hard it is to get carseat help, but doing so would mean they would need to admit they had major misuse - something it sounds like they're not willing to admit.

From the name and from the structure of the dad's english I believe this is probably a case of an ESL family. They are statistically the group most likely to have catastrophic misuse - in this geographic area anyways. I also know the seat that tends to be bought most of the time, and it's one that can be difficult to install tightly, and typically has a back adjust harness.

Being that mom and dad didn't sustain any injuries at all, I'd be inclined to say that this crash would've been survivable had the baby's harness been tightened enough. If there was a loose installation involved, and a loose harness, you're looking at a lot of extra room that the baby would've been shaken during the collision events. Factor in multiple impacts from rolling what sounds like more than once, and it's no small wonder that she had what essentially amounts to shaken baby syndrome.

If it wasn't for knowing I wouldn't be able to release any details anyways, I'd email a few contacts to see if I could get more information. Being the nature of this investigation though, even if the people I know were able to tell me, I wouldn't be able to release it anyways...
 

sparkyd

Active member
They said he was fine, but I had the harness straps too loose while putting 3 fingers between him and the straps. So while there is a difference in the head control of a 2 month and 3 month old, the straps in my non-tech opinion would have to be pretty loose for that to happen meaning the poor girl was not properly secured in her seat.

Do you mean by this that the straps were too loose before your roll over, or that is how loose they were after?
 

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