SuperLatch vs Vehicle Manufacturer

SuzaBanana

New member
Who's using their SuperLatch beyond the recommended vehicle manufacturer weight?
Why/how did you decide to do it?

I just weighed DD1 last night & she's 36.4 pounds naked. The XTSL is listed at 25 pounds & my Subaru's limit is 60 pounds for child AND seat. So, now I need to decide whether to wrestle with a seat belt install or trust SKJP/Diono :rolleyes:


Just looking for other opinions & why you chose what you did.
 
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lovemybabies924

New member
I follow lower latch weight limits, no questions asked.. Top tethers I try to buy seats that are said to do well un tetherd and then tether them anyway.

Sent from my iPod touch, sorry for any auto-correct typos!
 

Brianna

New member
I would defer to the lower limit. And even if the vehicle deferred to the child restraint, I still wouldn't trust SL to the limit.
 

luckyclov

New member
I follow the vehicle's specified LATCH limits, including top tether. Fortunately, I drive a Toyota, which defers to CRS and a 2012 Ford, which defers to CRS for TT limits. If I drove a vehicle with specified full LATCH limits, I'd probably do some risk vs. benefit with the TT, but LA would remain tight at the vehicle's limit.

In the case of my Toyota, which defers LATCH entirely to CRS, and SuperLatch, I would continue use of the lower anchors through 48 lbs, possibly a couple pounds more. In the case of my Ford, which has a vehicle specified 48 lb lower anchor weight limit, I would discontinue use of the LAs around 46-47 lbs.
 

Brigala

Well-known member
For lower anchors, I follow the lower of the two limits.

If for some reason I HAD to use LATCH I might choose to trust the SL technology, but if at all possible I'd find a different seat that I could install with the seat belt.

For Top Tethers, I generally attach them when present regardless of the child's weight. I've used the limit as an "excuse" to be lazy about TT for short trips with a large child in my Civic (because the Radian tether anchor is challenging to attach in that vehicle and not always worth it for a 5 minute ride 3 times a week when the seat has to come out of the car between uses), but honestly it's only an excuse. If the seat is going to remain installed in my car for more than a couple of days at a time, or for a longer trip, I ignore the TT limits and attach anyway.
 

Pixels

New member
I have a Toyota, which defers to the child restraint. I won't go beyond 48 pounds with LATCH in it.

If you CAN get a seat belt install, then for peace of mind then I think you should install with seat belt. Why even have that niggling doubt in the back of your mind? The one thing that I want if we're ever in a crash is to know, without a doubt, that I did everything I could to minimize my child's chances of injury.
 

VoodooChile

New member
The way I always saw it was that the hooks on the LATCH belt and the lower anchors in the vehicle had to work together, right? So even if SK/Diono tells me that my hooks will work to infinity and beyond (no, it's 80 lbs, right?), Honda is still saying that the lower anchors in my Pilot are only good to 40 lbs, no matter what SK/Diono says. I don't know if that's a correct understanding of the system or not, but that's why I won't use SL over my vehicle's stated limits.
And I totally hear you on the seat belt install. The last time I did a seat belt install (which isn't particularly tricky in a Pilot), I think I invented a new swear word.
 

bnsnyde

New member
I am for my FF son who is 5. My son is a bit over 50 lbs. and our limit in the van is 40 lbs. (though nothing in the manual of my Honda van).
I am using it because the seatbelt install in my van isn't great; the SL is solid.

When I move my daughter to the middle seat in the van and FF her, I'll probably SL that too...it's a ceiling seatbelt. I'm limited with what seats can fit there, and our Radian XTSL is one that can, and so nicely too as it's narrow. So I can have seats on either side easily.

I want to get a Frontier85 for my son...or I can continue to use the Radian with SL as he grows, and as his shoulders go over the top slot (almost there but not yet). So I guess I'd be spending $200+ for the new seat even though I'm following the manufacturer guidelines for my Radian. Tough. And I love my Radian.

So because I'd be doing SL way over 40 lbs. AND using it with shoulders over top slots (all OK by SK though), it's just TWO things that make me a bit nervous...so, I think I'd prefer the Frontier85 by the end of 2012 (for first grade).

And I always top tether for FF seats, and if it's specifically allowed, RF tether.
 

Syllieann

New member
In my 07 honda I plan to use sb if there is no difference. If the install with seatbelt is not as good or requires move from center to outboard and I'm also using top tether, I don't have a problem going to 65# with super latch. When I looked at the standard they had calculated it off of 65# combined weight for lower anchors only, which they then doubled, and then added even more cushion. In addition to that it's a static test, not dynamic, and in my vehicle top tether will also be in use.
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
The way I always saw it was that the hooks on the LATCH belt and the lower anchors in the vehicle had to work together, right? So even if SK/Diono tells me that my hooks will work to infinity and beyond (no, it's 80 lbs, right?), Honda is still saying that the lower anchors in my Pilot are only good to 40 lbs, no matter what SK/Diono says. I don't know if that's a correct understanding of the system or not, but that's why I won't use SL over my vehicle's stated limits.

Here's the thing that's confusing. The LATCH in your Honda is the same LATCH as is in a Toyota, which is perfectly happy to allow it to be used to 105 pounds (seat plus child) as long as the carseat is. And it's the same LATCH as is in Subaru. LATCH is standard, under FMVSS225 (just as carseats have to meet standards under FMVSS213). So why Honda says 40 (and yes, I do tell parents to stop at 40 pounds, unless they're ok with an SL install in a post 9/1/2005 car in a LATCH approved position) I don't know. And why Toyota says they defer, I don't know. But this is why SK/Diono says that yes, it's ok. They say that after the 9/1/2005 change the lower anchors were standardized so that they can take the forces, but the connectors on the carseat would not be able to withstand more than 40/48 pounds, child's weight. So they made a bigger and better connector, according to them, tested it, and found that it will hold 105 pounds of 80 pounds child and 25 pound carseat, and certified it as such.

Now, with that info, it's a parental decision. I don't know if I would, but as my kids don't/won't hit 40 pounds until after six years old, it's not one I need to worry about.

And I totally hear you on the seat belt install. The last time I did a seat belt install (which isn't particularly tricky in a Pilot), I think I invented a new swear word.

LOL

Wendy
 

hedgefun

New member
Does your Subaru owner's manual specify, or do you know the limit from the LATCH manual or just from posts on here?

I'm comfortable with the Superlatch to a certain extent in my Subaru. Some might disagree with my line of thought. I could not find *anywhere* in my Subaru manual where it specified a LATCH limit. I know the LATCH manual says 60 child+seat. IMO if Subaru is concerned that their LATCH points ae going to fail over 60 child+seat, they should disclose it in the manual.

Personally I would not go against the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations disclosed in the owner's manual. I feel like the limits must be disclosed in the manual for a reason.

ETA: Just read Wendy's post (why didn't I see it before, she posted hours before me? Long day!). I think I'm just more confused now (Wendy I know that wasn't your intent) ... so maybe I'm not comfortable with the Superlatch now. Hm...
 

Keeanh

Well-known member
That's always been a concern of mine. How does a seat magically convey strength to the vehicle's anchors? :rolleyes: I don't have LATCH, but I wouldn't use SL over the vehicle's limit if I did. Even though I'm sure those anchors can hold 20+ extra pounds, I still wouldn't do it.

ETA: Reading Wendy's post, I had no idea all LATCH was standardized like that. I mean, beyond the 40lb minimum, obviously. So has anyone established a true limit for today's LATCH? Could we safely LATCH to 200lbs (assuming there was an approved special needs seat or something like that)? I'm curious.
 

Syllieann

New member
That's always been a concern of mine. How does a seat magically convey strength to the vehicle's anchors? :rolleyes: I don't have LATCH, but I wouldn't use SL over the vehicle's limit if I did. Even though I'm sure those anchors can hold 20+ extra pounds, I still wouldn't do it.

ETA: Reading Wendy's post, I had no idea all LATCH was standardized like that. I mean, beyond the 40lb minimum, obviously. So has anyone established a true limit for today's LATCH? Could we safely LATCH to 200lbs (assuming there was an approved special needs seat or something like that)? I'm curious.

I bet Diono has an idea what it can withstand but there are a number of other variables that probably make it kind of a sliding scale. They are force tested so the weight AND the speed matter. I guess you could pick a speed that would encompass 99% of crashes. Then you would also need to define a length of time over which the force is applied-again I guess you could pick some kind of conservative benchmark for newer vehicles with good crumple zone. I wish they would standardize it to 65# child plus 25# seat for a total of 90# since that would encompass almost all kids that are in harnessed seats that are on the market today. What worries me about super latch is not the high weight limits but the fact that there is so much latch misuse. In particular, borrowing anchors in a vehicle where it's not allowed and using that to 80# would scare me. Using it to 80# in a car that is MY05 instead of mfg after 9/05 would also scare me.
 

lourdes

New member
Have the super latch ever fail?? I know this SL have been around for some time now and if they can not do what Diono claims they can then there has to be a reported incident of failing, I least that's what I think, they have been around enough time to be proof wrong.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Doesn't Subaru have to assume that you aren't using the top tether when they give that weight limit? Top tethers spread forces out considerably, but aren't legally required, so maybe if they WERE required, the companies with the low weight limits stated would raise them?
 

Pixels

New member
Doesn't Subaru have to assume that you aren't using the top tether when they give that weight limit? Top tethers spread forces out considerably, but aren't legally required, so maybe if they WERE required, the companies with the low weight limits stated would raise them?

They don't have to assume that, no. A few manufacturers list separate limits for lower anchors only, top tether with seat belt, and lower anchors and tether together.

When LATCH was first developed in the late 90s, seats were lightweight and maxed out at 40 pounds. That's what they assumed for the child weight, 40 pounds. So early LATCH standards really are based on a 40 pound child. Later, the LATCH standard was strengthened a few times. Since no manufacturer (other than SKJP/Diono for SuperLATCH) makes a distinction based on when the vehicle was manufactured, I think 40 pounds is quite reasonable.

I also think it would be quite reasonable to say that vehicles manufactured before X date have a weight limit of A and vehicles manufactured from X to Y date have a weight limit of B, but I also understand wanting simplicity and keeping things the same across the board.
 

Pixels

New member
I bet Diono has an idea what it can withstand but there are a number of other variables that probably make it kind of a sliding scale. They are force tested so the weight AND the speed matter. I guess you could pick a speed that would encompass 99% of crashes. Then you would also need to define a length of time over which the force is applied-again I guess you could pick some kind of conservative benchmark for newer vehicles with good crumple zone. I wish they would standardize it to 65# child plus 25# seat for a total of 90# since that would encompass almost all kids that are in harnessed seats that are on the market today. What worries me about super latch is not the high weight limits but the fact that there is so much latch misuse. In particular, borrowing anchors in a vehicle where it's not allowed and using that to 80# would scare me. Using it to 80# in a car that is MY05 instead of mfg after 9/05 would also scare me.

They basically have standardized it with the upcoming revision of FMVSS 213. Seats will have lower anchor limits that are no higher than 65 pounds combined seat+child weight.
 

dhardawa

New member
Here's the thing that's confusing. The LATCH in your Honda is the same LATCH as is in a Toyota, which is perfectly happy to allow it to be used to 105 pounds (seat plus child) as long as the carseat is. And it's the same LATCH as is in Subaru. LATCH is standard, under FMVSS225 (just as carseats have to meet standards under FMVSS213). So why Honda says 40 (and yes, I do tell parents to stop at 40 pounds, unless they're ok with an SL install in a post 9/1/2005 car in a LATCH approved position) I don't know. And why Toyota says they defer, I don't know. But this is why SK/Diono says that yes, it's ok. They say that after the 9/1/2005 change the lower anchors were standardized so that they can take the forces, but the connectors on the carseat would not be able to withstand more than 40/48 pounds, child's weight. So they made a bigger and better connector, according to them, tested it, and found that it will hold 105 pounds of 80 pounds child and 25 pound carseat, and certified it as such.Now, with that info, it's a parental decision. I don't know if I would, but as my kids don't/won't hit 40 pounds until after six years old, it's not one I need to worry about.



LOL

Wendy

My problem is, SK/Diono has been oh so upfront and honest with customers in the past. (Can you feel the sarcasm?) This is just another example of them saying, "Ignore what everyone else says, our seats can fly to the moon!" I don't trust them. They have lied over and over and over.
 

Syllieann

New member
They basically have standardized it with the upcoming revision of FMVSS 213. Seats will have lower anchor limits that are no higher than 65 pounds combined seat+child weight.

Yeah, I was lamenting that they chose 65# combined instead of going the extra 25# that would encompass most harnessed seats on the market today. That extra 25# would make a big difference in usefullness, especially as it relates to the confusion surrounding top tethers.
 

SuzaBanana

New member
So I guess I need to figure out a seat belt install. Boo. Stupid XTSL is a beast to get into the Tribeca with LATCH, nevermind trying a seat belt!

Not sure what I'll do if I can't get a good install with the belt. I wasn't planning on flipping her anytime soon, but this might challenge that goal.
 

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