Side impact

[happiness-and-balance]

Remember that a) our standard doesn't allow for requiring a load leg to pass testing (though I suppose if it passed testing without they could still require its use if it did even better with on a modified sled) and b) ”good enough” is super, super safe and saves an awful lot of children from death and serious injury.

Exactly this.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...shXYRPknnuDEQHBK9psmogA&bvm=bv.78677474,d.aWw

I don't know if that's going to work, but that is the study I found so interesting. It says 75% of the head should be contained by the wings forward facing if you want to prevent injury. It is very reassuring to see that only one carseat (Combi Shuttle) made contact with the door rear facing and the wings don't seem so important.

 

[1mommy]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...shXYRPknnuDEQHBK9psmogA&bvm=bv.78677474,d.aWw

I don't know if that's going to work, but that is the study I found so interesting. It says 75% of the head should be contained by the wings forward facing if you want to prevent injury. It is very reassuring to see that only one carseat (Combi Shuttle) made contact with the door rear facing and the wings don't seem so important.

My questions would be these tests are done in a lab, not in real life, so would those wings obstruct the child's view and would the child be leaning out the shell to look out the window, so when the crash happens would they be thrown out of the wings, therefore making them useless? There is so much that can happen between the car and the child (and the crash) that standard testing in a lab can't cover. No one seat can protect you form everything.

I trust Darin who has said more then once, (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find his exact post so please correct me if I'm wrong) that the statistics show that as long as you have a properly restrained child, the bells and whistles of the seat matter very little in reducing the chances of injury. Granted its not a bad thing to be worried about your child and want to protect them in the best way you can, but I think you can drive yourself crazy worrying about every single possibility.

The best thing you can do is to RF as long as possible, even past 4 if the child will still fit in the seat, so I would buy whichever seat will RF the longest and will be installed properly in your car. Also note that 75% of the side impact injuries were for children under 4, so as you plan on rear-facing till 4 that will significantly reduce your child's chances of injury.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

My questions would be these tests are done in a lab, not in real life, so would those wings obstruct the child's view and would the child be leaning out the shell to look out the window, so when the crash happens would they be thrown out of the wings, therefore making them useless? There is so much that can happen between the car and the child (and the crash) that standard testing in a lab can't cover. No one seat can protect you form everything.

I trust Darin who has said more then once, (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find his exact post so please correct me if I'm wrong) that the statistics show that as long as you have a properly restrained child, the bells and whistles of the seat matter very little in reducing the chances of injury. Granted its not a bad thing to be worried about your child and want to protect them in the best way you can, but I think you can drive yourself crazy worrying about every single possibility.

The best thing you can do is to RF as long as possible, even past 4 if the child will still fit in the seat, so I would buy whichever seat will RF the longest and will be installed properly in your car. Also note that 75% of the side impact injuries were for children under 4, so as you plan on rear-facing till 4 that will significantly reduce your child's chances of injury.

I think those seats with a deep shell are probably the best to avoid the headwing lean forward - there is no getting around them! I have started to take more note of actual shell depth than big fancy head wings. Anyway, I don't have to worry about a FF outboard kid for another 3 years since my oldest will be in the center when she turns. It's just interesting reading for me and something to consider in my carseat arrangement in the car when the day does come.

I very much understand how safe all the seats are and rear facing and all that. It's not really that I am driving myself crazy thinking about a carseat, but more that I really enjoy looking into the safety aspect and what does make a difference even if just in safety tests. Physics doesn't come naturally to me so even learning that a body flies towards the point of impact is eye opening - I always pictures the kid flying the opposite way in a side impact! I didn't really understand why rear facing was safer for side impacts either until I really looked into the crash test reports. So probably finding this a lot more fascinating than techs and everyone who already gets it!

As far as the load leg, every review of the infant seats that have one seem to go crazy about how safe and wonderful they are. So I do stick by my personal opinion that they would be a help out here now that we are rear facing past 30lbs! Just a gut feeling, I know our seats pass hard tests and save kids all the time.

 

[SafeDad]

What we do know is that most fatal injuries are related to one or more of the following factors:

1) no use of restraint system
2) misuse of restraint system
3) distracted/impaired driving

Eliminate those, and the risk of fatal or permanent injury to a child, especially a rear-facing child, is nearly zero. Even if all those other choices of brand of carseat, make/model of vehicle, seating positions and such cut the risk in half, which I doubt is the case. If you've already done the basics and reduced the proven risks to nearly zero, half of zero is still zero;-) Now if you haven't taken care of those basics above, then maybe these other choices become much more significant.

But sometimes, more expensive seats really help with #2. That's important. Maybe not so much for a certified tech who can get that Cosco Scenera always installed and used correctly. But it is for the average parent who may re-install it periodically and has to use it right every trip.

And who is Darin? Smart guy!

 

[SafeDad]

That's the thing about load legs on RF seats. They really do help in crash testing measures. But the reality is that the real world risk to children in properly installed and used rear-facing carseats is so low that the benefit is also probably low. Now suppose you didn't install it tightly or tighten the harness enough, or have a very rare but extremely energetic crash. There are certainly cases where reducing rotation and rebound are likely to be more beneficial.

As for side wings, all it takes is for a kid to have their head forward looking at the iPad on their lap and a little forward motion when the vehicle is T-boned for those side wings and internal cushioning to lose a lot of benefit. A model with external cushions (Advocate) or extendable linear protection (Aton 2/Q) would still have the potential to keep some space between the child and possible intrusion. How significant those features may be may never be known.

 

[Hazelandlucy]

That's the thing about load legs on RF seats. They really do help in crash testing measures. But the reality is that the real world risk to children in properly installed and used rear-facing carseats is so low that the benefit is also probably low. Now suppose you didn't install it tightly or tighten the harness enough, or have a very rare but extremely energetic crash. There are certainly cases where reducing rotation and rebound are likely to be more beneficial.

As for side wings, all it takes is for a kid to have their head forward looking at the iPad on their lap and a little forward motion when the vehicle is T-boned for those side wings and internal cushioning to lose a lot of benefit. A model with external cushions (Advocate) or extendable linear protection (Aton 2/Q) would still have the potential to keep some space between the child and possible intrusion. How significant those features may be may never be known.

Thanks so much! Do you think the new Advocate seems as protective? The side cushions are much smaller and firmer and I wonder if they just made the shell itself have better SIP for the Blvd and Marathon sake. I assume a lot of the newer model car seats at least had an inkling about the upcoming SIP test?

Do you think a deep shell that the kid can't lean past - like the 10" of depth on the Advanced Air or 9' of a Britax - helps or can kids still get their head past the shell in either in a crash or beforehand?

How effective do you find rigid latch FF for side impact?

As far as rear facing outboard, would the Air Protect system actually be somewhat useful since the head is pushed back into the seat? Maybe even more useful than when FF and head can escape the wings? Or is the Advocate and it's cushions still more useful (in theory/personal opinion)?

 

[SafeDad]

I wish I had answers for you, but I really don't. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these three seats and suspect the differences are very minor. If you are looking to buy one, just go with whichever one seems easiest to install/use, or even with your gut, or whichever fashion you like best. As long as you get a good return policy in case you find something that you don't like, then any of them will be extremely effective when installed and used correctly!