Side impact

Hazelandlucy

New member
I am done worrying about downward rotation and onto side impact!

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/cpsupgrade/cpsside/pea/index.html

Based off that, would you rather a FF kid be outboard in a Foonf with rigid latch, but not super deep sides or a Britax Advocate/Safety 1st Advanced Air with hugely deep side walls and the side cushions/Gcell foam?

What about RF? I know it doesn't matter as much in a side crash because the kid's head goes back into the shell, but what about a hard rear end crash or rear end/side impact (like by the gas tank) that cause the head to fly forward and/or towards the side? I assume deep sides would make a difference in that kind of crash?

FF in the center I assume none of this matters at all? Would you try to protect kid from hitting outside of adjacent carseat?
 
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SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Properly installed and used correctly, I don't think it would be a significant difference.

I do think the external cushions on the Advocate are more likely to have a beneficial effect than internal cushions or foam, though. How significant of an effect, we may never know.

I think a RF tethered Advocate or RF Foonf with anti-rebound bar would be among the most protective setups overall in a side impact. But I think most RF seats would also be nearly zero risk of serious injury to the child, so again, not a big difference if properly installed and used.
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I think you're kind of overthinking all this ;)

Different safety features may or may not make a difference, especially depending on the type, location, and severity of crash. Certain things might make more of a difference in one type of vehicle (contours, seatbelt geometry, etc.) or with certain sizes of kids, but not others.

The fact is that crash testing is very limited. It would be impossible to test for every possibly scenario, so we test for a very small cross-section and do what we can.

Safe cell, air cushions, deep wings, etc., might or might not make a difference. What DOES make a difference is having a child properly restrained, which your kids will be, regardless, I'm sure.

Frontal impacts are by far the most common. Side impacts are rarer but the most deadly. Rear impacts are common, but usually not severe (think fender-benders at a red light). We can't protect for every scenario, and we'd go crazy if we tried to.

Get the seat(s) that make the most sense for your family. Any of the ones you've mentioned are great choices.
 
I think you're kind of overthinking all this ;) Different safety features may or may not make a difference, especially depending on the type, location, and severity of crash. Certain things might make more of a difference in one type of vehicle (contours, seatbelt geometry, etc.) or with certain sizes of kids, but not others. The fact is that crash testing is very limited. It would be impossible to test for every possibly scenario, so we test for a very small cross-section and do what we can. Safe cell, air cushions, deep wings, etc., might or might not make a difference. What DOES make a difference is having a child properly restrained, which your kids will be, regardless, I'm sure. Frontal impacts are by far the most common. Side impacts are rarer but the most deadly. Rear impacts are common, but usually not severe (think fender-benders at a red light). We can't protect for every scenario, and we'd go crazy if we tried to. Get the seat(s) that make the most sense for your family. Any of the ones you've mentioned are great choices.

:yeahthat: You don't get to pick your crash, so I'd pick the seat that is easiest for me to install and use, worked best with my budget, and then I'd call it a day :)
 

thepote

New member
I agree with all that's been posted, but I will add my thinking on it, fwiw. I got a Foonf to FF my 4yo DD, specifically because of the rigid latch/side impact issue. I did consider all of the seats with huge side wings. The deciding factors for me were having a narrower seat in case I needed to move it (with four kids this is always a possibility), and I liked that it sat up higher, closer to where the side airbags are.

It is definitely not the seat that's going to get her to booster age, though. At some point I'm going to want something like a frontier/performance sport/ nautilus to give her more legroom, shoulder space, and lower profile. But for now it's what makes me ~feel~ like she's the safest, but that's more my issue and not really based on hard facts.
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
Oh, I totally get its the easiest seat for me, etc. I guess I am overly curious about all this. I find the different seat technology very interesting to compare and what happens during a crash/why injuries happen interesting as well.

I also do like to try and read between the lines and use my brain a bit. It seems like newly released seats are getting deeper wings (new Dionos)and shells and moving to metal vs plastic. Seats are adding rebound control that didn't originally have them (Peg). Foam seems to be increasing (advanced air). Infant seats are adding load legs and rigid latch. So it does make me nervous to go with a plastic seat without rebound control and low sides even if they are safe. Are they really AS safe? Is the Pria going to protect as well as the Advocate in a worst case scenario? That actually is a serious question as I love the easy clean seat pad and cup holder!
 

bnsnyde

New member
Nah, you are not over thinking it. I do it all the time, lol.
The Foonf (I don't have one) looks super high. That alone would cause me not to see and to crash (I hate vans and I have to drive one with soon to be 6 kids).

I love the Advocate and think I'd pick it every time. I had it in the middle row, middle seat for a long time (it's always been RF for us). I don't think there is overkill! I love the deep sides, and wings. Now, though, I am using the Orbit simply because it rotates and is easier on my back. It's outboard. And you can carry the kid in, in the carseat, if you really want to (comes off the base). Which, OK, that defeats the purpose of the bad back saver...but not really since carrying it up and out is an OK motion. The twisty stuff required to stuff a big toddler into a RF seat (when pregnant or even not) is tough on the body.

One of my kids has a Recaro Performance booster and the outside sides are even soft, so it's like side protection (or at least less likely to smack into a metal seat!) for the kids next to it. Though, they are all in seats now so that's not an issue.
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
I agree with all that's been posted, but I will add my thinking on it, fwiw. I got a Foonf to FF my 4yo DD, specifically because of the rigid latch/side impact issue. I did consider all of the seats with huge side wings. The deciding factors for me were having a narrower seat in case I needed to move it (with four kids this is always a possibility), and I liked that it sat up higher, closer to where the side airbags are.

It is definitely not the seat that's going to get her to booster age, though. At some point I'm going to want something like a frontier/performance sport/ nautilus to give her more legroom, shoulder space, and lower profile. But for now it's what makes me ~feel~ like she's the safest, but that's more my issue and not really based on hard facts.

Do you think that sitting up higher also makes the Foonf safer in the sense that an impact will be lower on the body? Like the difference between getting hit in a sedan vs a Suburban?

My DD just has such a hard time getting in. I think a lot of it is just lack of desire, lol, but I am going to install some others and see if it helps. It's so high over my head when I do have to heave her in. I am thinking of putting it in my husband's car until it gets off that base and FF.
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
Nah, you are not over thinking it. I do it all the time, lol.
The Foonf (I don't have one) looks super high. That alone would cause me not to see and to crash (I hate vans and I have to drive one with soon to be 6 kids).

I love the Advocate and think I'd pick it every time. I had it in the middle row, middle seat for a long time (it's always been RF for us). I don't think there is overkill! I love the deep sides, and wings. Now, though, I am using the Orbit simply because it rotates and is easier on my back. It's outboard. And you can carry the kid in, in the carseat, if you really want to (comes off the base). Which, OK, that defeats the purpose of the bad back saver...but not really since carrying it up and out is an OK motion. The twisty stuff required to stuff a big toddler into a RF seat (when pregnant or even not) is tough on the body.

One of my kids has a Recaro Performance booster and the outside sides are even soft, so it's like side protection (or at least less likely to smack into a metal seat!) for the kids next to it. Though, they are all in seats now so that's not an issue.

I have never even looked into the Orbit! Not sure how I missed that one. How long does that 23" shell last…is there a 1" rule? Much legroom? One of the carseats I wanted to bring over from England rotated like that and I thought it was amazing.

I also think about my other kid getting hitting against the carseat and it's another reason I like the Advocate. If it wasn't for the leg room I would get another in a second. Although the new cushions seems so much harder and Britax no longer says 45% reduction…I wonder if the new shell has better SIP than the G4 and cushions no longer add so much extra protection.
 

bnsnyde

New member
The Orbit Toddler seat might last until college, lol. The shell is crazy tall BUT there is a 35 lb. weight limit RF, so there is that.

FF it would fit a 4 or maybe 5-year-old, it seems. It does not have the rotation feature FF, however.

The legroom isn't great. But no worse than anything else I've used. Radians always gave me the best legroom.

The shell is nice and deep. It does sit upright a lot (a small towel is allowed) but still, it's quite upright, so the child tends to push his/her head up and out to see, etc. When sleeping, with head back, wow, such a nice deep shell with a protected head!
 

thepote

New member
Do you think that sitting up higher also makes the Foonf safer in the sense that an impact will be lower on the body? Like the difference between getting hit in a sedan vs a Suburban?

My DD just has such a hard time getting in. I think a lot of it is just lack of desire, lol, but I am going to install some others and see if it helps. It's so high over my head when I do have to heave her in. I am thinking of putting it in my husband's car until it gets off that base and FF.

I guess it's possible... But then again crashes are all so different that you don't know how the door will crumple, etc, and what kind of incursion it will involve. I feel like having the rigid latch in the side impact is the key and that's what's going to reduce the forces throwing her seat into the side of the car, where she would hopefully hit the airbag.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
If your seat is top tethered, in a side impact that will be very protective against hitting the side of the vehicle. (See as anecdotal evidence: pics of our crash where the two forward facing seats rotated out around the fulcrum of the tethers.)
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
Put the Pria in the center seat next to the Foonf and it really wasn't any lower. I tested the easy clean seat pad and discovered no foam anywhere that I can see on the plastic frame. Combined with no rebound I can't do it. I know it's 100% safe, but I don't get that peace of mind I am hoping for. Feel like I can do better.

The Peg installs great in the center next to the Foonf. I assume a Britax Advocate click tight would as well. Same with another Foonf/Fllo.

It's going to stay in the middle until baby is 2 and then go RF outboard. Obviously Advocate is perfect in thinking long term, except years 2 - 4 is when I find it so cramped leg room wise.

Pick for me?
 

seb3244

New member
I have never even looked into the Orbit! Not sure how I missed that one. How long does that 23" shell last…is there a 1" rule? Much legroom? One of the carseats I wanted to bring over from England rotated like that and I thought it was amazing. I also think about my other kid getting hitting against the carseat and it's another reason I like the Advocate. If it wasn't for the leg room I would get another in a second. Although the new cushions seems so much harder and Britax no longer says 45% reduction…I wonder if the new shell has better SIP than the G4 and cushions no longer add so much extra protection.

So is the 2013 advocate I have better in a side crash or the brand new click tight advocate? I really like the new ones and wanted to sell my used one in order to buy a new one. What do you think?
Thanks!
 

seb3244

New member
Oh, I totally get its the easiest seat for me, etc. I guess I am overly curious about all this. I find the different seat technology very interesting to compare and what happens during a crash/why injuries happen interesting as well. I also do like to try and read between the lines and use my brain a bit. It seems like newly released seats are getting deeper wings (new Dionos)and shells and moving to metal vs plastic. Seats are adding rebound control that didn't originally have them (Peg). Foam seems to be increasing (advanced air). Infant seats are adding load legs and rigid latch. So it does make me nervous to go with a plastic seat without rebound control and low sides even if they are safe. Are they really AS safe? Is the Pria going to protect as well as the Advocate in a worst case scenario? That actually is a serious question as I love the easy clean seat pad and cup holder!
I don't think you are over thinking it at all. I am very curious about this as well :)
 

Snow mom

New member
Oh, I totally get its the easiest seat for me, etc. I guess I am overly curious about all this. I find the different seat technology very interesting to compare and what happens during a crash/why injuries happen interesting as well. I also do like to try and read between the lines and use my brain a bit. It seems like newly released seats are getting deeper wings (new Dionos)and shells and moving to metal vs plastic. Seats are adding rebound control that didn't originally have them (Peg). Foam seems to be increasing (advanced air). Infant seats are adding load legs and rigid latch. So it does make me nervous to go with a plastic seat without rebound control and low sides even if they are safe. Are they really AS safe? Is the Pria going to protect as well as the Advocate in a worst case scenario? That actually is a serious question as I love the easy clean seat pad and cup holder!
You have to remember though that car seat companies aren't just trying to build the safest or a statistically safer seat--they are trying to market to parents. And marketing is about price points and features that consumers want. I wouldn't take a shift toward more seats having a feature as being a sign that those features add protection in a significant way but rather a sign that parents feel they add safety.
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
So is the 2013 advocate I have better in a side crash or the brand new click tight advocate? I really like the new ones and wanted to sell my used one in order to buy a new one. What do you think? Thanks!


I am curious about this too - the fact that you can now rear face over the shell makes me think the headrest must be better reinforced?

I know the original advocate claimed 50% better side impact and in the FAQ section, Britax answers a question about why a newer model has only 45% more by saying the new model improved over the original so there was less improvement to be had. So now that they don't give a figure at all makes me think the new Clicktight shells are better SIP than the G3/G4?

From the site: Q. The Side Impact Cushions on the new ADVOCATE 70 CS claim to reduce side impact energy by 45% versus 50% on the original ADVOCATE CS. Why has the claim changed?
A. All Next Generation convertibles have 50-65% improved side impact crash energy management performance versus our prior convertibles, so our starting base line performance for comparison is much higher. Therefore, the new ADVOCATE 70 CS, which reduces side impact crash energy by an incremental 45% versus the rest of our Next Generation convertibles, has superior side impact crash energy management performance versus the original ADVOCATE CS.
 

Hazelandlucy

New member
You have to remember though that car seat companies aren't just trying to build the safest or a statistically safer seat--they are trying to market to parents. And marketing is about price points and features that consumers want. I wouldn't take a shift toward more seats having a feature as being a sign that those features add protection in a significant way but rather a sign that parents feel they add safety.

That's probably true. I still think that a rigid latch rear facing seat with a load leg and rebound bar - that lights up and beeps when installed correctly - is the way to go especially now that we have 50 lb RF carseats, and carseat companies are just getting away with "good enough" out here! Which is obviously just completely personal, uneducated, conspiracy theory opinion, lol.

I do read a lot of the studies I can find and probably interpret them wrong, but in one of them it actually said the Dorel Air Protect and Advocate were "good design", the majority were average and the Radian 65/Evenflo Chase were poor for side impact. It was the test behind those Youtube videos and pretty interesting to read, will have to find it again, although maybe it's getting obnoxious for a parent to keep posting links, I don't want to wear out my welcome!

So I am a believer in deep side walls in case the kid comes out of the head wings and at least the side cushions and air protect as begin somewhat helpful!
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Remember that a) our standard doesn't allow for requiring a load leg to pass testing (though I suppose if it passed testing without they could still require its use if it did even better with on a modified sled) and b) ”good enough” is super, super safe and saves an awful lot of children from death and serious injury.
 

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