Rigid LATCH and seatbelt on Foonf

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
Honda does (or did?) have a lifetime guarantee on seatbelts. I'd get it looked at for sure. I'd bet broken retractor that could have been defective all along. I can't imagine that vehicle having a locking latchplate.
 
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Phineasmama

New member
Yeah, definitely not a locking latch plate but it is one of those weird seat belts that comes out of the ceiling, you have to attach it to one side and then you can buckle it (hopefully that makes sense). I guess I always thought that's why it didn't work right :eek:
Last night I tried several times, pulling the belt all the way out and letting it retract back in, it definitely does not stay locked. And you don't hear the audible clicking sound as the seat belt goes back in to the retractor like you do with the outboard seats.

At the moment I have an 80SL in the middle latched for DD1, and I'm not like 100% comfortable with the whole super latch thing, but since she's only like 44 lbs at the moment I still think it's safer than her being in a LBB, because she doesn't stay positioned right in the seat belt for the whole ride. So we're ok right now but I am definitely going to have to get this checked out. I didn't buy it recently, I bought it brand new in 2009, but I have only had good experiences with Honda service here in Madison so I am sure they will fix it if there is something wrong.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
How do you know the ELR works? Just because it ”catches” playing with it doesn't mean it will work in that event of a crash if there has been retractor damage somewhere along the line. It needs inspection and fixing regardless, probably replacement, and until that happens I'd only use LATCH or BSC there.
 

Pixelated

Moderator - CPST Instructor
How do you know the ELR works? Just because it ”catches” playing with it doesn't mean it will work in that event of a crash if there has been retractor damage somewhere along the line. It needs inspection and fixing regardless, probably replacement, and until that happens I'd only use LATCH or BSC there.

:yeahthat:

I have a couple of training belts, including retractors that I removed from vehicles. Sometimes I can get them to catch, and sometimes I can't. Just not a risk worth taking on such a critical system.

Honda replaced a faulty driver's side buckle stalk that was switching the air bag off in our 03 just last year, so chances are very good they'll do something about it, especially if you bought it brand new.

I think the type of buckle you're talking about is called 'detachable' or at least that's how I refer to it!
 

Phineasmama

New member
Yeah it will catch like every time I pull on it for the ELR, but I see your point about not trusting that if the retractor might be broken!
 

Clek CPST

New member
If you were to use seat belt only FF, how much benefit would the child receive from the REACT system in case of a crash?

ETA: And how can I tell if there is any interference between the LATCH anchors and the seat belt? I am trying to figure out if I can do this in my 09 Subaru Forester, am not a tech and have no clue, and Subaru referred me here!

REACT was designed specifically for rigid LATCH installation. (The rigid LATCH is actually part of the REACT safety system.)

When there is interference between LATCH and seatbelt essentially you can't properly use one due to the other.

For instance, I will use "o" to indicate the lower anchor, "-" to indicate the point connecting the lower anchors in a dedicated seating position, "." to show empty space and "x" to show the anchor point of the seat belt and the buckle. (Imagine first "x" is your seatbelt anchor point and your 2nd "x" is your buckle.)

x..o----o...x = no interference
x..o---x-o = interference

In the 2nd example, you couldn't readily buckle the belt because of the lower anchors.

Interference isn't always that cut and dried, but the basic idea is that if one system interferes with the use of the other, there is interference. In most vehicles, standardized seating positions have seatbelts that are positioned without interference. The seating positions where you get interference are typically when you have an offset center LATCH position that overlaps slightly with the seatbelts.

(Side note that sometimes outboard LATCH and seatbelt do have interference with the center seatbelt, so this may be a consideration in some vehicles, but in general, a dedicated LATCH position doesn't typically have problem with seatbelt interference.)

But this couldn't happen right? In a car new enough to have LATCH, you have a seat belt that locks somehow. Either you have a switchable retractor or you have a locking latch plate.

There is one model vehicle in Canada that does have ELR only seatbelts and LATCH. The model is one that is only available in Europe and Canada, and as neither country has lockability standards, the vehicle manufacturer has chosen to leave the seatbelts as an ELR only retractor. (I was extremely shocked when I discovered this, and I've only seen it once so far, but it may be possible to run in to this if somebody imports a vehicle or in Canada it could potentially be slightly more common. The vehicle manual in this case also essentially said to always use LATCH when installing a car seat.)
 

Phineasmama

New member
Ok, so my seat belt may be broken :p

I'm still wondering though, if we use LATCH and seat belt together, let's say just for the sake of an example it's in a position with no interference, brand new 2013 vehicle with locking seat belts. You latch it in, then you put the seat belt through the FFing belt path. Do you then lock the seat belt? Use the FFing lock offs on the Foonf? I guess what I'm asking is do you install it with the seat belt like you normally would if you did not have the lower anchors attached?
 

Clek CPST

New member
Ok, so my seat belt may be broken :p

I'm still wondering though, if we use LATCH and seat belt together, let's say just for the sake of an example it's in a position with no interference, brand new 2013 vehicle with locking seat belts. You latch it in, then you put the seat belt through the FFing belt path. Do you then lock the seat belt? Use the FFing lock offs on the Foonf? I guess what I'm asking is do you install it with the seat belt like you normally would if you did not have the lower anchors attached?

There will be instructions specific for installations using rigid LATCH and seatbelt at the same time when the updated manual comes out. :thumbsup:
 

Amyfromky

New member
I must say I am really excited about this. I didn't think we'd get an opportunity to play with the fun rigid latch! :)
 

Persimmon

Active member
REACT was designed specifically for rigid LATCH installation. (The rigid LATCH is actually part of the REACT safety system.)

When there is interference between LATCH and seatbelt essentially you can't properly use one due to the other.

For instance, I will use "o" to indicate the lower anchor, "-" to indicate the point connecting the lower anchors in a dedicated seating position, "." to show empty space and "x" to show the anchor point of the seat belt and the buckle. (Imagine first "x" is your seatbelt anchor point and your 2nd "x" is your buckle.)

x..o----o...x = no interference
x..o---x-o = interference

In the 2nd example, you couldn't readily buckle the belt because of the lower anchors.

Interference isn't always that cut and dried, but the basic idea is that if one system interferes with the use of the other, there is interference. In most vehicles, standardized seating positions have seatbelts that are positioned without interference. The seating positions where you get interference are typically when you have an offset center LATCH position that overlaps slightly with the seatbelts.

(Side note that sometimes outboard LATCH and seatbelt do have interference with the center seatbelt, so this may be a consideration in some vehicles, but in general, a dedicated LATCH position doesn't typically have problem with seatbelt interference.)



There is one model vehicle in Canada that does have ELR only seatbelts and LATCH. The model is one that is only available in Europe and Canada, and as neither country has lockability standards, the vehicle manufacturer has chosen to leave the seatbelts as an ELR only retractor. (I was extremely shocked when I discovered this, and I've only seen it once so far, but it may be possible to run in to this if somebody imports a vehicle or in Canada it could potentially be slightly more common. The vehicle manual in this case also essentially said to always use LATCH when installing a car seat.)

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I can see now how they could interfere.

I am disappointed to hear that the rigid LATCH is part of REACT. That was not clear to me when looking at the website or reading my manual. I would never have know that using the seat belt would decrease they effectiveness of REACT in any way if I was not active here. I wish I would have known this before I bought 2 Foonfs. Any update on how much the REACT system would benefit a child when the seat belt only is used?
 

Phineasmama

New member
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I can see now how they could interfere.

I am disappointed to hear that the rigid LATCH is part of REACT. That was not clear to me when looking at the website or reading my manual. I would never have know that using the seat belt would decrease they effectiveness of REACT in any way if I was not active here. I wish I would have known this before I bought 2 Foonfs. Any update on how much the REACT system would benefit a child when the seat belt only is used?

I thought it was pretty clear in the promotional videos on their website that REACT was part of the rigid latch. Hopefully the new manual will be out soon and most people will be able to use the latch and seat belt together.
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
REACT was designed specifically for rigid LATCH installation. (The rigid LATCH is actually part of the REACT safety system.)

When there is interference between LATCH and seatbelt essentially you can't properly use one due to the other.

For instance, I will use "o" to indicate the lower anchor, "-" to indicate the point connecting the lower anchors in a dedicated seating position, "." to show empty space and "x" to show the anchor point of the seat belt and the buckle. (Imagine first "x" is your seatbelt anchor point and your 2nd "x" is your buckle.)

x..o----o...x = no interference
x..o---x-o = interference

In the 2nd example, you couldn't readily buckle the belt because of the lower anchors.

Interference isn't always that cut and dried, but the basic idea is that if one system interferes with the use of the other, there is interference. In most vehicles, standardized seating positions have seatbelts that are positioned without interference. The seating positions where you get interference are typically when you have an offset center LATCH position that overlaps slightly with the seatbelts.

(Side note that sometimes outboard LATCH and seatbelt do have interference with the center seatbelt, so this may be a consideration in some vehicles, but in general, a dedicated LATCH position doesn't typically have problem with seatbelt interference.)



There is one model vehicle in Canada that does have ELR only seatbelts and LATCH. The model is one that is only available in Europe and Canada, and as neither country has lockability standards, the vehicle manufacturer has chosen to leave the seatbelts as an ELR only retractor. (I was extremely shocked when I discovered this, and I've only seen it once so far, but it may be possible to run in to this if somebody imports a vehicle or in Canada it could potentially be slightly more common. The vehicle manual in this case also essentially said to always use LATCH when installing a car seat.)

I have run into more than a few vehicles where one of the lower anchors and the seatbelt buckle for the same seating position share space.
 

aporthole

Active member
Foonf - Rigid LATCH and seat belt (part 2)

Any update on this? Have the updated manuals been release? Also was the answer of method for seat belt install when using in addition to rigid LATCH ever determined (route seat belt without locking, route seat belt and lock belt, route seat belt through lock-offs and close like a normal seat belt install)?

Trudy, oh Trudy, come hither :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Clek CPST

New member
Re: Foonf - Rigid LATCH and seat belt (part 2)

Any update on this? Have the updated manuals been release? Also was the answer of method for seat belt install when using in addition to rigid LATCH ever determined (route seat belt without locking, route seat belt and lock belt, route seat belt through lock-offs and close like a normal seat belt install)?

Trudy, oh Trudy, come hither :)

The manual update is complete and I have a final copy. It isn't live on our site yet but should be very soon.

Until the full manual can be downloaded I'm asking people who want the exact instructions for installing ff'ing with both to contact customer service at 1-866-656-2462 or you can contact me through email through the forum here as well. I could give an abbreviated version, but there are some specific warnings in there that include diagrams and I feel it's important people either get one-on-one help from us or else have a manual they can look at.
 

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