MA (or other higher weight britax seat) poll, what are you doing now?...

What are you doing now?

  • I will use a MA rear-facing

    Votes: 52 61.9%
  • I will not use a MA rear-facing

    Votes: 2 2.4%
  • I will use a MA FF for a child under 40 lbs

    Votes: 29 34.5%
  • I will not use a MA FF, for a child under 40 lbs, in the cars that had issues

    Votes: 7 8.3%
  • I will not use a MA FF, for a child under 40 lbs, in any car.

    Votes: 12 14.3%
  • I will use a MA FF for a child over 40 lbs.

    Votes: 28 33.3%
  • I will not use a MA FF, for a child over 40 lbs in the cars that had issues.

    Votes: 6 7.1%
  • I will not use a MA FF, for a child over 40 lbs, in any car.

    Votes: 20 23.8%
  • clicky box

    Votes: 13 15.5%

  • Total voters
    84

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
I'm not saying they're lying at all but I would have much prefered that they only used every seat once.

They even said that they weren't comparing the performance of the seats. I would consider how a seat performs after a crash in the category of seat performance :shrug-shoulders:.

I really, really think that some of us are looking at this too narrowly. These were not tests to determine which seat works best and/or which seat works best in which car. I think we need to get out of that mindset (and no, I'm not saying there isn't cause for concern on some of those tests). These are ongoing tests geared (as I understand it) to improving testing and perhaps revising standards, not testing and ranking individual seats.
 
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LM4M

CPST Instructor
Your right. Good catch.

So the two seats that failed were in cars that had either 40 or 48 lb latch limits.

Who knows if dodge and honda have a 40 or 48 lb latch limit? I am curious.

Either way, the child was at least 4.5 lbs over the limit (and possibly 12.5 lbs over the limit!) for using LATCH, and the fact that the seats failed miserably should do nothing other than attest to the fact that seats should NOT be used in any way other than what is specified by the manufacturer.

Saying that you won't use a marathon FFing because of these tests is like saying you won't use a snugride22 anymore because it failed with a 29 lb child in it during a test. There simply isn't any logic to that.

Show me a crash test that shows a properly installed (meaning seatbelt, not LATCH for a 52.5 lb child) MA used FFing in one of these vehicles, then we'll actually have something to discuss.

I am in no way an expert on the subject, but I feel like if you're deliberately testing against something the manufacturer expressly tells you NOT to do... common sense tells me that the outcome is likely to be unfavorable.

ETA: I am unsure of the LATCH limit on Dodge vehicles, but I did own a 2002 Honda Civic and I am 100% sure that the latch limit was 40lbs.
 

InternationalMama

New member
Saying that you won't use a marathon FFing because of these tests is like saying you won't use a snugride22 anymore because it failed with a 29 lb child in it during a test. There simply isn't any logic to that.

While I see your point and I think it's a valid one, I don't think the comparison with the Snugride 22 is exactly right. The MA is designed to secure a 52lbs child. Sure, it wasn't designed to secure a 52lbs child with LATCH, but it was still designed to secure a 52lbs child with the right connectors. A 29lbs child in a Snugride22 would be over the weight limit with any connection.

Also, I think people would be less concerned if the seat had clearly failed due to a LATCH problem. It just doesn't, um, look like a LATCH problem. But I'm open to the possibility that it is if anybody can jump in and explain the logic to that.
 

emandbri

Well-known member
To me it doesn't matter that they used the latch past the weight limit, the harness ripped through the plastic and I don't think the way the seat is attached to the car would have made a difference.
 
And now I'm way confused. Some people here are talking about not using the MA FF because of the tests, but I don't see one video with a FF MA? Am I missing something?

Also, some are discussing the harness coming through a seat and putting pressure on some plastic and/or metal bar. Where do you see this?

Once again... so confused :eek:

thank goodness I am not the only one lost.. should I stop using my marathon?
 

brightredmtn

Well-known member
To me it doesn't matter that they used the latch past the weight limit, the harness ripped through the plastic and I don't think the way the seat is attached to the car would have made a difference.

I think it would because if there was a higher force applied to the seat as a whole because the LATCH wasn't bearing the correct level of force it was designed to, it could transfer a higher force on the harness thus causing it to rip through the shell.

Basically the crash force has to go somewhere and if it's too much for the LATCH it could transfer to other parts of the seat.

I have a fine arts degree but that makes sense in my head at least.
 

arly1983

New member
Also, I think people would be less concerned if the seat had clearly failed due to a LATCH problem. It just doesn't, um, look like a LATCH problem. But I'm open to the possibility that it is if anybody can jump in and explain the logic to that.

To me it doesn't matter that they used the latch past the weight limit, the harness ripped through the plastic and I don't think the way the seat is attached to the car would have made a difference.

I have a very (college) basic understanding of physics and the placement of number of points of the attachment of the carseat and the angles of those points of attachment in relation to the where the largest mass of and object that is suddenly stopped DOES change where the force goes. It could be that the angle of the base of the marathon + the angle of the seat of those cars equals the child moving forward at an angle where the most force is placed shoulder straps of the marathon causing failure of the slots. It also brings to mind if that much force is being exerted by the child flying forward to break the shell of the seat that equals bad injury to the child. Latch straps are narrower than seat belts and I think these tests show that they do perform differently and those differences should be explored even more. lower anchor limits have been determined by pull tests not actual tests of how seats perform at what weights. Maybe for some seats a higher latch limit is not a good idea because of how their design and how they perform. The radian, we are told, does awesome with super latch up to 65-80 lbs. That doesn't mean that every seat, specifically those with bases will perform just as well.

Actually now that I am thinking about it I would love to compare carseat tests using only lap seat belts and latch to see if the width of the belt could change the performance of a seat.

If that doesn't make sense forgive me, I am trying to make dinner at the same time.
 

arly1983

New member
I think it would because if there was a higher force applied to the seat as a whole because the LATCH wasn't bearing the correct level of force it was designed to, it could transfer a higher force on the harness thus causing it to rip through the shell.

Basically the crash force has to go somewhere and if it's too much for the LATCH it could transfer to other parts of the seat.

I have a fine arts degree but that makes sense in my head at least.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: I finally post and you have done a better job explaining it in fewer words. :love:
 

LM4M

CPST Instructor
I have a very (college) basic understanding of physics and the placement of number of points of the attachment of the carseat and the angles of those points of attachment in relation to the where the largest mass of and object that is suddenly stopped DOES change where the force goes. It could be that the angle of the base of the marathon + the angle of the seat of those cars equals the child moving forward at an angle where the most force is placed shoulder straps of the marathon causing failure of the slots. It also brings to mind if that much force is being exerted by the child flying forward to break the shell of the seat that equals bad injury to the child. Latch straps are narrower than seat belts and I think these tests show that they do perform differently and those differences should be explored even more. lower anchor limits have been determined by pull tests not actual tests of how seats perform at what weights. Maybe for some seats a higher latch limit is not a good idea because of how their design and how they perform. The radian, we are told, does awesome with super latch up to 65-80 lbs. That doesn't mean that every seat, specifically those with bases will perform just as well.

Actually now that I am thinking about it I would love to compare carseat tests using only lap seat belts and latch to see if the width of the belt could change the performance of a seat.

If that doesn't make sense forgive me, I am trying to make dinner at the same time.


:thumbsup: Agreed. Especially in the Honda civic with the LATCH bearing a 52.5lb load, and the LATCH only rated to 40lbs. That is a huge red flag if you ask me. They don't just pull these numbers out of a hat, the anchors are made to withstand a certain amount of pressure, and when that pressure is exceeded...in this case by over 25% of the recommended weight... you're just asking for something to go wrong.

Perhaps we are thinking too literally in that the anchor may be ripped from the seat or fail in some way (visably)... when perhaps it is failing by putting too much force on the seat itself and causing unknowns to happen to the SEAT (not the anchors). I am vaguely remembering my high school days learning about centrifical (sp?) force... and the whole levers and pulleys experiment... and how putting pressure on one thing can directly impact the performance of another. In my mind it makes sense that if something is rated to a certain limit, and you exceed it, it could cause a chain reaction (e.i. either breaking of the actual latch itself.. which I feel is unlikely, or distributing force to other parts of the seat that may not be equipped to handle such force, hence the LATCH weight limit).

And just for arguments sake... how do we know that the other tests where seats did NOT rip through were not a half pound away from it ripping through the seat? Who's to say that a 53 lb crash dummy would not have caused the seat harness to rip through? Isn't it possible that since some did it, and some didn't, we are right on the borderline of how much weight is too much weight using LATCH? Isn't it possible that the limits for LATCH are set lower (40lbs and 48lbs) because at some point (possibly 52-53lbs?) there is a breaking point where the LATCH is no longer absorbing the force that it should and could potentially compromise the seat holding the child?
 

emandbri

Well-known member
I hope you guys are right and britax is testing seats now and they are fine when the seat belt is used instead. It makes me so sad to not use my marathons.

My understanding is that latch only was only tested to 40 lbs because when latch came out seats only went to 40 lbs so there was no need to test them with more weight.
 

LM4M

CPST Instructor
I hope you guys are right and britax is testing seats now and they are fine when the seat belt is used instead. It makes me so sad to not use my marathons.

My understanding is that latch only was only tested to 40 lbs because when latch came out seats only went to 40 lbs so there was no need to test them with more weight.

It it's true that LATCH only tested to 40 lbs because seats only harnessed to 40lbs, then why do many vehicles have 48lb limits. And if the 48lb limit is arguably a newer limit due to higher seat restraint limits, then why 48lbs and not 45, 50, 60, 65, etc? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. I think the weight limit is due to safety issues, and the manufacturer doesn't note anything to the contrary.

If this issue is really a huge problem we should all be concerned about, you cannot tell me that Britax would not be issuing a statement or warning or recall (even though I doubt a recall would be in order since the seat was used improperly)... I think until they used a properly installed seat AND use a dummy within the proper limits for the restraint (whether seatbelt or LATCH), this should not be a huge concern.

If you are not using your marathons, it's because you have formed opinions based on variables that should have never been tested. I would continue to use the seat as recommended by the manufacturer until they instruct you otherwise. But that's just me :)
 

arly1983

New member
My understanding is that latch only was only tested to 40 lbs because when latch came out seats only went to 40 lbs so there was no need to test them with more weight.

Mine, too.

I just think that with the RadianSL going over 48 now it has opened a whole nother can of worms. Will latch act the same over that weight? Is that the reason why the radians now have super latch because it doesn't act the same or does the low profile of the radians make it work better with latch? I would love to be a fly on the wall in the SKJP test facility.
 

brightredmtn

Well-known member
Mine, too.

I just think that with the RadianSL going over 48 now it has opened a whole nother can of worms. Will latch act the same over that weight? Is that the reason why the radians now have super latch because it doesn't act the same or does the low profile of the radians make it work better with latch? I would love to be a fly on the wall in the SKJP test facility.

I for one wouldn't use "super LATCH" beyond what my car tells me :twocents:.
 

Mommy090804

New member
Mine, too.

I just think that with the RadianSL going over 48 now it has opened a whole nother can of worms. Will latch act the same over that weight? Is that the reason why the radians now have super latch because it doesn't act the same or does the low profile of the radians make it work better with latch? I would love to be a fly on the wall in the SKJP test facility.

More food for thought (and maybe a CDN tech could correct me if I am wrong): My Canadian Radian manual (JUL2007) states "Do not use vehicle's lower universal anchorage system when installing this restraint for a child weighing more than 65lbs (30kg)."

Apparently there is no UAS/LATCH limit for the CDN manufactured Radians (max 65lbs)? Has this changed? The Radian manual does not specifically say that the vehicle may have a LATCH limit. Also, some vehicle manuals do not state the LATCH limit. The average parent wouldn't know that there is a limit for LATCH, especially if it is not stated in the vehicle manual. I guess what I am also trying to say is that this particular seat may be used over the vehicle's LATCH limit inadvertently by a fairly carseat-savvy parent, hence, the importance of testing seats this way.


Also, sooooo many people ask the question: "why can't I use the seatbelt and LATCH at the same time? Wouldn't it be safer?" Once again, I think it is interesting that TC did test seats this way.


I think the TC study provides valuable information, but raises so many questions as evidenced here.



I am no longer able to view the videos at this time either, and also have a few more questions regarding failure of the MA in the Civic and Caravan. What I do know is that DD will no longer be riding FFing in her MA in our Civic.
 

InternationalMama

New member
Thanks to those of you who tried to explain why using LATCH over the limit might cause the harness to rip out. Almost made me want to find a physics textbook and do some reading! :)

As for the Radian and Superlatch, it was my understanding based on what people have said Russ said (although I know he isn't always reliable) that the reason they couldn't use LATCH to a higher limit before was limited less by the vehicle's LATCH system and more because the carseat side of LATCH wasn't strong enough before, that is the connector and the LATCH belt. I have heard many people who seem to know a lot about the carseat and car industries say that LATCH can hold a lot more than the limits placed upon it. I would love to see the results of more real life testing too.
 

indigoblossom

New member
While I see your point and I think it's a valid one, I don't think the comparison with the Snugride 22 is exactly right. The MA is designed to secure a 52lbs child. Sure, it wasn't designed to secure a 52lbs child with LATCH, but it was still designed to secure a 52lbs child with the right connectors. A 29lbs child in a Snugride22 would be over the weight limit with any connection.

Also, I think people would be less concerned if the seat had clearly failed due to a LATCH problem. It just doesn't, um, look like a LATCH problem. But I'm open to the possibility that it is if anybody can jump in and explain the logic to that.

i'd say it was a LATCH problem, or at least user error creating a LATCH problem because if i've read correctly, not only were the dummies heavier than the manufacturer's maximum weight limits for LATCH but also one of them used the LATCH connectors in addition to a seatbelt?!?!? both of those scenarios are asking for trouble. iirc, britax states that LATCH can only be used until a child weighs 48 pounds unless the vehicle manual states otherwise but none of the vehicles tested would have had higher limits.

i will admit i haven't seen the videos. i don't know if TC removed them but i get an error and cannot access the links. however, i have read just about every comment here and from what i've gathered the snugride comparison makes sense when you take the method of connection into consideration. it's not a flawless comparison since the snugride 22 is never intended for a child more than 22 pounds and the MA is designed to hold a child safely up to 65 pounds, but not by means of LATCH. with a LATCH installation, the MA only has a capacity of 48 pounds, therefore testing a 52-lb dummy is completely bogus.
 

InternationalMama

New member
i'd say it was a LATCH problem, or at least user error creating a LATCH problem because if i've read correctly, not only were the dummies heavier than the manufacturer's maximum weight limits for LATCH but also one of them used the LATCH connectors in addition to a seatbelt?!?!? both of those scenarios are asking for trouble.

I don't think (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that the use of LATCH with the seatbelt resulted in any failures. In fact, in some cases the seats actually performed better with LATCH plus a seatbelt. So the cases we are discussing here don't include that scenario.

Also, this wasn't a case of user error. The users were intending to test these common "user errors" to see how the seats performed. You're correct, they were asking for trouble. :) It's interesting how often they didn't get it!

I agree that one can't use these videos to draw conclusion about an individual seat's safety, and yet I see why when watching the videos people who own these seats may find they do so anyway.

Have you also read the other two (much longer) threads in the Canadian and International forum? Here are the links:

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=100772

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=101040
 

emandbri

Well-known member
I am getting a bit annoyed. If this really is case of the seats failing because they used the latch past the limit I wish it had occured to them to test it with the seat belt after it failed. I also wish they had tested the 3 year old dummy in those cars.
 

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