Just Curious...............

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SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
As I said earlier, regardless of what you drive, the most important things are to restrain all your passengers correctly, drive unimpaired and drive undistracted. Those factors are far more important than your choice of vehicle or carseat.
 
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Morganthe

New member
the most important things are to restrain all your passengers correctly, drive unimpaired and drive undistracted. Those factors are far more important than your choice of vehicle or carseat.

Don't forget your pets in this matter too! They're serious driver distractions when loose and they need to be restrained in a crate or belt system for their safety. :D

Mine use a Batzi Belt clip (was $12, 10 or so years ago) with a coupler hooked to their body harnesses. They're small enough to lay together comfortably behind the passenger's seat and next to her center carseat. My daughter loves 'buckling' in her fellow 'prisoners'. :D
 

lovinwaves

New member
If you were to read my posts correctly you would see that I was asking about people buying "NEW" cars. I said if you have the money to buy new why not buy the safest car? I understand not everyone can afford new, BUT IF YOU COULD afford new why not pick safer? I have been fortunate enough to always have a new car, but if I had to buy a used car I would still research the same way and find a used car in my price range that was the safest "at the time". Whether it is a $1000.00 car or a $10,000.00 car. I know there are more safety features on newer cars, but used cars still have good crash ratings or bad crash ratings. This thread was started to find out why people buy "unsafe cars" or cars that have had "Bad Crash" ratings whether newer or older.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
If you were to read my posts correctly you would see that I was asking about people buying "NEW" cars. I said if you have the money to buy new why not buy the safest car? I understand not everyone can afford new, BUT IF YOU COULD afford new why not pick safer? I have been fortunate enough to always have a new car, but if I had to buy a used car I would still research the same way and find a used car in my price range that was the safest "at the time". Whether it is a $1000.00 car or a $10,000.00 car. I know there are more safety features on newer cars, but used cars still have good crash ratings or bad crash ratings. This thread was started to find out why people buy "unsafe cars" or cars that have had "Bad Crash" ratings whether newer or older.

Good point. There are certainly differences in safety among new and used vehicles at all price points. I don't think anyone is saying that people should trade in their current vehicle for one that is safer or that someone is a bad parent because they happen to have some particular model.

The point is that at some time in the future, you will probably be trading in your current model for a different one. At that time, please look carefully at the differences in crash test results, safety features and crash avoidance features (handling, braking, tires, etc). This is a great place to ask if you want advice in comparing vehicles. Let's keep it that way;-)
 

lovinwaves

New member
Good point. There are certainly differences in safety among new and used vehicles at all price points. I don't think anyone is saying that people should trade in their current vehicle for one that is safer or that someone is a bad parent because they happen to have some particular model.

The point is that at some time in the future, you will probably be trading in your current model for a different one. At that time, please look carefully at the differences in crash test results, safety features and crash avoidance features (handling, braking, tires, etc). This is a great place to ask if you want advice in comparing vehicles. Let's keep it that way;-)

THANK YOU for finally understanding what I am trying to ask! This isn't to point fingers this is merely stating facts and asking important questions. Noone on this forum is a "BAD PARENT", we are all good parents on here wanting to keep our kids the safest we can. With that said, that is why I asked the original question. :)
 

lovinwaves

New member
By the way Darren, great in fact AWESOME link you provided on the other thread. Again, very interesting. It just goes to show that price doesn't always matter when it comes to safety(again assuming new :rolleyes: ), just so you don't think I'm being "snarky".... sheesh. The Kia Sedona is at the top of the list and it can cost up to $10,000.00 less than my Ody. That would be a great Minivan for someone in that price bracket. But people HAVE TO research to know what vehicle is safe. This is a great website showing a breakdown of info. It was kind of interesting also to see some higher end cars way down on the list. Knowledge and research is POWER!! Here is the link in case some of you missed it.

www.informedforlife.org
 

Victorious4

Senior Community Member
If you were to read my posts correctly you would see that I was asking about people buying "NEW" cars. I said if you have the money to buy new why not buy the safest car? I understand not everyone can afford new, BUT IF YOU COULD afford new why not pick safer?

Hi Melissa! FWIW, I never saw your post as saying anyone is a bad parent for doing the best they can with what they've got -- I can understand what you're saying & fundamentally I agree, but even when someone can afford to buy new it doesn't mean they can afford all the safety features....

For example: I had a 99 Chevy Blazer that I desparately needed to trade in (unsafe crash ratings + a rear center lap only belt for which the manual said NEVER install a carseat :mad: so my SS had to sit up front because SD was in a booster & DD was RF). I could barely afford a replacement, but only if it was worth enough for the bank to approve the trade in since I still owed on the Blazer. The higher new car insurance wasn't good. I opted for a hybrid that luckilly had side impact curtain airbags throughout, but it's crash ratings were still not as good as I'd have liked. Then the dealer broke the hybrid engine & there was a stressful mess over replacement, etc. & I ended up with something without side curtain airbags & worse gas mileage :(

This is why I said this leads into my hate for dealerships, LOL :) & on that note it would be oh so nice if more safety features were STANDARD on more affordable vehicles!
 

lovinwaves

New member
Hi Melissa! FWIW, I never saw your post as saying anyone is a bad parent for doing the best they can with what they've got -- I can understand what you're saying & fundamentally I agree, but even when someone can afford to buy new it doesn't mean they can afford all the safety features....

For example: I had a 99 Chevy Blazer that I desparately needed to trade in (unsafe crash ratings + a rear center lap only belt for which the manual said NEVER install a carseat :mad: so my SS had to sit up front because SD was in a booster & DD was RF). I could barely afford a replacement, but only if it was worth enough for the bank to approve the trade in since I still owed on the Blazer. The higher new car insurance wasn't good. I opted for a hybrid that luckilly had side impact curtain airbags throughout, but it's crash ratings were still not as good as I'd have liked. Then the dealer broke the hybrid engine & there was a stressful mess over replacement, etc. & I ended up with something without side curtain airbags & worse gas mileage

This is why I said this leads into my hate for dealerships, LOL & on that note it would be oh so nice if more safety features were STANDARD on more affordable vehicles!

Your answer to my question was exactly what I was asking for. I started the thread as a question. And people replied with answers. Just as I intended. We all live in our own little worlds and maybe never understand what it is like to be in other peoples situations especially money situations. That is why I asked the question. I'm glad you were able to get into a safer vehicle, and more carseat friendly car. :) Yes, I think Safety features should be standard also. I think you will see the trend in new cars is more "Standard" safety features. That's the great thing about car competition, sometimes it does benefit the consumer.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
THANK YOU for finally understanding what I am trying to ask! This isn't to point fingers this is merely stating facts and asking important questions. Noone on this forum is a "BAD PARENT", we are all good parents on here wanting to keep our kids the safest we can. With that said, that is why I asked the original question. :)

I said the same thing in earlier posts. It seemed appropriate to reiterate, though.
 

Morganthe

New member
http://www.batzi.com/

I like it because it's a only triangle metal shackle that slips over the seatbelt + an adjustable strap with swivel hooks on either side. The photo they use is incorrect since the seatbelt should be hooked in as if someone was sitting there.

But I found that my dogs would tangle up in the human seatbelt if I used the batzi or any other seatbelt system that way. Instead, I've slid the shackle over one of the metal rods to the rear headrest. All the straps lay flat on the back drop and no one gets tangled or stressed. Since it doesn't include a body harness, I could use their own (one had a very deep chest for her 15lb body and had to have hers hand- made long ago).

I would not reccomend the way I have them fastened to the head rest area for larger dogs, but together, they weigh only about 30lbs. It's just a way to keep them in one place more than a guarantee of protection. It's such a small area between my husband's back and the carseat, but if the door pops open suddenly, they won't fall out or escape.

When my car has been full of people, the shackle can also stay on while someone is using it. My dogs have either sat in a lap, alongside, or down in the footwell... all while hooked in. :) I found it very versatile over the years.
 

stayinhomewithmy6

Senior Community Member
Hi Melissa. I know you didn't mean it that way, but it was easy to perceive that way at first. But, I realize that the question your asking is one like why people don't use car seats for their children. Thats what I REALLY don't understand. I even see people driving around all the time with a car seat in their car and their child is either sitting in it, not strapped in, or not sitting in it at all. So, thats the same kind of question, right? If they have it available to them, why don't they use it!? I actually have cousins that are like that - they have booster seats in their van for their kids, but the kids are never buckled in, always jumping around, etc.... Its so maddening!
 

lovinwaves

New member
Hi Melissa. I know you didn't mean it that way, but it was easy to perceive that way at first. But, I realize that the question your asking is one like why people don't use car seats for their children. Thats what I REALLY don't understand. I even see people driving around all the time with a car seat in their car and their child is either sitting in it, not strapped in, or not sitting in it at all. So, thats the same kind of question, right? If they have it available to them, why don't they use it!? I actually have cousins that are like that - they have booster seats in their van for their kids, but the kids are never buckled in, always jumping around, etc.... Its so maddening!

Yay, you got what I was asking too!! :D EXACTLY RIGHT!!
 

Victorious4

Senior Community Member
Although it does look versitile & easier, it does not look like it will hold up in a crash -- in fact, I'm willing to bet on it....
  • The little swivel hook would surely fail in a crash, as could the harness itself (remember even a 15 pounds dog = 450 pounds of force during a mere 30 MPH crash).
The Ruff Rider Roadie's double reinforced harness is crash tested at thousands of pounds of force so although it's not held to any federal safety standard I trust it more than a swivel hook!
& the Pet Buckle is made by IMMI -- the same company that makes carseat harness straps, tetchers & LATCH (which are held to FMVSS!), so I obviously trust their product.
  • It is also easier than the Ruff Rider & quite versatile.
 

Morganthe

New member
I fully agree with you regarding the strength of a swivel hook vs. the strength of a solid strap. The problems I had was that my dogs, even when separate, would turn constantly around in the same direction. It would cause everything including the harness to start twisting up painfully. The final straw was when Chienne almost choked to death quietly in my back seat. Her harness & the strap were strangling her neck. I didn't even realize it until Samma, my other dog began whining loudly. So much for not distracting the driver. I was so scared at the time trying to pull over safely and getting my dog to breathe! After several different brands (and they were difficult to find) I settled with Batzi.

My dogs barely go anywhere with me these days, Vet & Groomers is about it because of the intense heat and nowhere to go anyway :( . The good ole days of their travel would have them laying in their crate shell behind my hubby on top of luggage all buckled in the Batzi & blankets with about 3 inches from the roof of the car. :D

Still, my goal is primarily to keep them in their seat laying down and settled while I'm driving. I don't want them loose & wandering around distracting me, the driver. I realize there's no a guarantee that the seatbelt will protect them from any serious injury. It's impossible and I think that these companies are selling products that only work in theory when there's nothing in front of that animal.

The problem I have with the manufacturing of these car belts for dogs, is that they aren't taking into account the overal size of the animal they are to stop. Look at the photo of that Lab. His strap goes to the base of his body and it's into a regular (loose) seatbelt. It's adding about 3 feet of harness to his body. If the driver stops suddenly, there everything will stretch out unless that dog is completely lying down. That's about 75lbs + body length of struggling dog. He'll naturally slam into the car seat in front of him. In an SUV or Van, there's plenty of space between seats, but in my Camry, that same large breed dog would hit whoever in front of him HARD! One of my German vets told me about a large breed dog who did that and actually paralyzed his owner.

Somehow the design is opposite than a dog's anatomy needs it to be. The belt should be hooked into the top of the rear seat area, something like a tether for a CR. That would keep it tangle free for the animal and since they hook into the shoulders, not have to add length to go past the bottom of the dog into a human seatbelt.
I hope this makes sense.

(psst, perhaps the mods can move this discussion to its own thread, so we don't hijack this one :D )
 

Victorious4

Senior Community Member
I remember another CPST on here once said something about the fact that it might be considered cruel, but her desire to keep the animals secured is not for the animals' safety, it's for the passengers ... & on that note we all seem to agree :)

What we can't see about the Ruff Rider (& I forget now if the Ped Buckle is the same) is that there are different notches for keeping the dog closer to the seatback & since all vehicles 1996+ have a locking mechanism then the dog will stay put while driving unless the dog bites the vehicle interior (in which case a nylon muzzle is necessary during the trip so that the driver isn't distracted with discipline commands). Since IMMI makes harnesses that hold kids up to 105# & the vehicle belts are made for over 300# passenger, I'm pretty sure the risk of a large dog in either of these restraints is much less compared to the swivel hook because it undoubtedly will fail in a crash.

Transporting animals by crate is dangerous, too. Dangerous for animals & passengers when inside SUV/minivans, dangerous for animals when in pickup trucks.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I couldn't disagree with you more. At least with Honda's your repairs would be virtually none. With a Cavalier you are almost guaranted repairs. The reason people buy Honda's is because of the low maintenance and unbelievable reliability. I have never ever ever ever had to fix one of my cars. Honda's, Toyota's, Lexus's, go FOREVER!!!! Plus my Ody has a warranty of up to 80,000 bumper to bumper. I would NEVER put myself let alone my child in a Cavalier (COFFIN)!

And, I can say the same thing about my GM vehicles but I can't say that about my VW. Second the Cavalier is no longer produced and hasn't been in many years. Don't bash a car that today's standards is not a safe vehicle but back when it was produced did pass those days standards.

My take on this is to each their own. I am sure you will think b/c I drive an '05 Chevy Tahoe I drive an unsafe vehicle. But, Really to me it's what I wanted and fit my families needs. We used to tow a race car trailer. We also have an '02 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD crew cab truck & an '05 Pontiac GTO.

Trust me we research every little thing about our vehicles but a Toyota Seinna or Honda Ody wouldn't even come close to fitting our family needs at the time. Plus we refuse to buy a foreign vehicle.

How do you know that these families you post about buying a vehicle the 1st day they car shop haven't research for 6mths just like you? I bought my Tahoe the first day we went car shopping. Doesn't mean that my dh & I hadn't researched other options. We just knew what vehicle we wanted when we actually went to the dealership. We ordered our truck & GTO over the phone without stepping foot into the dealership until the day we signed the papers & took them home. Again, We researched both of those vehicles for well over 1.5yrs.

Again, It's each their own. And hate that at times I am made to feel on this site that b/c I drive a large size SUV that I am knowningly putting my children at risk. I see many posts where someone ask others car opinions they clearly state they don't want a van for what ever reason they state. That others immeditaly jump on the but a minivan is everything holy.

Not trying to start a debate but I found your post to be a little harsh & judgemental of those on this site. We all are doing our best to protect our children the best we can. And, That is the way it should be. I don't judge someone b/c what they drive or what car seat their child is in b/c it isn't the safest in my standards. To each their own.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
Any foreign car is going to be more pricey to fix over American. At least you don't have to repair Foreign near as much as American!

WRONG!!! This is your personal perpective as mine is different. I had a brand new VW (which by the way JD Powers gave one of the worst quality control ratings of any automaker) Passat. We bought brand new and it was in the shop in the 18mths we owned it 22 times. I have a friend that just had her Honda Accord bought back by Honda.

You don't see any automaker closing service departments. Plus explain to me why GM had the most vehicles in the top 10 on JD Powers on quality control (less defects or repairs) survey I think it was in '05 then any other automanufacture. Again, It's ones opinion and not hard facts in a lot of cases.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I used to want a camper, but now I'm terrified of them. AND? ITS ALL YOUR FAULT! lol (Seriously after reading how there are only two safe seating positions.... ugh). (A Camper was a dream things).

My parents had a beautiful expensive mobile home and did a lot of traveling it it through out the year. But, Once they the girls got here and my not allowing them to take them in that. They down graded and got a beautiful 5th wheel camper that they tow their their truck. Sleeps just as many people has a full bathroom with the exception of the washer/dryer their mobile home had. It's just just as nice and is much easier to park.

So, Don't give up your camper dreams just adjust it a little. Instead look at a vehicle towed camper. Plus you can buy a brand new vehicle plus camper for almost half the cost of an RV.

In the next 2-3yrs we will be buying our own 5th wheel camper.
 
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