News Foonf pic!

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Meg

New member
I'm pretty excited at the thought of it being so narrow! I'd love to be able to do 3 across in my backseat without needing to involve a Radian.

Thanks for all the info, Clek! :D
 

clek

New member
Sorry that it took me so long to get an answer for you on Canada. Here goes:

1) Rear-tethering (Australian method, i.e. tethering back to the top tether) is permitted under the Canadian standard. Rear-tethering to front seat or to floor is NOT permitted under the Canadian standard

2) There is a partial floor on the test bench, but rear-facing child seats may only be secured to the vehicle by means of seat belts, lower connector systems, and tether straps (Australian method explained in #1) without using any other means of attachment. So, you can't use a support leg to test to a higher weight.

You technically can test rear-facing to a higher weight limit in Canada. But, you need to pass all of the necessary tests with a 6YO ATD (injury criteria, new rebound limit, the 70 degree rule, centreline of head below top of child seat, etc.), making it EXTREMELY difficult to go beyond 40 lbs and pass without a support leg. In fact, anything over 40 lbs in Canada requires testing with a 6YO ATD, which is the reason why we have 40 lb RF weight limits in Canada.

Hope this helps clarify things.
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
Sorry that it took me so long to get an answer for you on Canada. Here goes:

1) Rear-tethering (Australian method, i.e. tethering back to the top tether) is permitted under the Canadian standard. Rear-tethering to front seat or to floor is NOT permitted under the Canadian standard

2) There is a partial floor on the test bench, but rear-facing child seats may only be secured to the vehicle by means of seat belts, lower connector systems, and tether straps (Australian method explained in #1) without using any other means of attachment. So, you can't use a support leg to test to a higher weight.

You technically can test rear-facing to a higher weight limit in Canada. But, you need to pass all of the necessary tests with a 6YO ATD (injury criteria, new rebound limit, the 70 degree rule, centreline of head below top of child seat, etc.), making it EXTREMELY difficult to go beyond 40 lbs and pass without a support leg. In fact, anything over 40 lbs in Canada requires testing with a 6YO ATD, which is the reason why we have 40 lb RF weight limits in Canada.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Awesome info. Thank you! It seems they have changed things with the new regulations then. Prior to the 2012 regs, apparently a support leg was allowed, or in the very least not restricted. This was info obtained from someone at Transport Canada so it should be correct. It's unfortunate that they took some of this capability away. Grrr to Transport Canada!

In fact, anything over 40 lbs in Canada requires testing with a 6YO ATD, which is the reason why we have 40 lb RF weight limits in Canada.
So does this mean that your RF weight limit is higher in the U.S.? ;) (or have you released that info already and I missed it?). I think I'll go kick Transport Canada's butt. Allowing RF seat to 65# but yet making it impossible for any seat to pass is frustrating. I wanted to go from RF straight to booster with my last child and couldn't because she hit the 40# limit on her RF seat prior to being booster ready.
 

canadiangie

New member
Thank you. :)

Current Sunshine Kids seats RF to 45 lbs here, as do new Diono seats. I'm not sure if you're saying we don't have seats that RF past 40lbs here, or if you're saying Clek Canada seats won't RF past 40lbs.

Also, I'm confused about Swedish style tethering not being part of the standard. Do you mean the tether cannot be in use when compliance testing a RF seat (ie: pass/fail)? If so, that makes sense. But if you mean CMVSS restricts Swedish style tethering entirely, that's either incorrect or some very new information. Both Britax Canada and SK/Diono Canada allow for Swedish style tethering per the manual.

Further, are you saying that Aussie style tethering can be in use during compliance testing? My understanding is that it would need to be crash tested if it's going to be listed as ok in the manual, but meeting the downward rotation limitation couldn't be dependent on the tether being in use. Am I mistaken on this?



Sorry that it took me so long to get an answer for you on Canada. Here goes:

1) Rear-tethering (Australian method, i.e. tethering back to the top tether) is permitted under the Canadian standard. Rear-tethering to front seat or to floor is NOT permitted under the Canadian standard

2) There is a partial floor on the test bench, but rear-facing child seats may only be secured to the vehicle by means of seat belts, lower connector systems, and tether straps (Australian method explained in #1) without using any other means of attachment. So, you can't use a support leg to test to a higher weight.

You technically can test rear-facing to a higher weight limit in Canada. But, you need to pass all of the necessary tests with a 6YO ATD (injury criteria, new rebound limit, the 70 degree rule, centreline of head below top of child seat, etc.), making it EXTREMELY difficult to go beyond 40 lbs and pass without a support leg. In fact, anything over 40 lbs in Canada requires testing with a 6YO ATD, which is the reason why we have 40 lb RF weight limits in Canada.

Hope this helps clarify things.
 

clek

New member
I'm not sure that it changed from the earlier regulation. You are permitted to use a support leg. You just can't use it to pass your compliance testing.

Also, I wouldn't say that it is impossible to pass RF with the 6YO - just REALLY REALLY difficult given the testing requirements. We will certainly test our production seats (spring) using the 6YO ATD and adjust our height/weight at that time.
 

clek

New member
Please allow me to clarify. I am only saying that it is EXTREMELY difficult to test beyond 40 lbs in Canada as you need to test with a 6YO ATD (taller occupant). I can't speak for other seat manufacturers specifically. I am merely answering the question that posted earlier about testing requirements in Canada that make higher RF weight limits more difficult.

With regards to testing, the pass/fail criteria for compliance testing allows you to rear-tether to the top tether (prevent downward rotation). It does NOT allow you to rear-tether to the floor or front seat frame (to prevent rebound) to pass compliance testing. I am referring ONLY to the compliance (pass/fail) testing, not whether it is permissible in vehicle.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Please allow me to clarify. I am only saying that it is EXTREMELY difficult to test beyond 40 lbs in Canada as you need to test with a 6YO ATD (taller occupant). I can't speak for other seat manufacturers specifically. I am merely answering the question that posted earlier about testing requirements in Canada that make higher RF weight limits more difficult.

With regards to testing, the pass/fail criteria for compliance testing allows you to rear-tether to the top tether (prevent downward rotation). It does NOT allow you to rear-tether to the floor or front seat frame (to prevent rebound) to pass compliance testing. I am referring ONLY to the compliance (pass/fail) testing, not whether it is permissible in vehicle.

Thanks for this clarification. That makes complete sense to me and fits with what I know about CMVSS.

So in essence, the rebound management needs to be built in to the seat in a way that interacts directly with the vehicle seat that the seat is installed on, and in order to rate to a higher rf'ing weight limit, the seat would need to be built to accomodate the 6yo AMD in the rf'ing mode. (And that brings in the obvious issue of leg space for the crash test dummy perhaps?)

I can see the challenge involved for sure.
 

canadiangie

New member
Please allow me to clarify. I am only saying that it is EXTREMELY difficult to test beyond 40 lbs in Canada as you need to test with a 6YO ATD (taller occupant). I can't speak for other seat manufacturers specifically. I am merely answering the question that posted earlier about testing requirements in Canada that make higher RF weight limits more difficult.

With regards to testing, the pass/fail criteria for compliance testing allows you to rear-tether to the top tether (prevent downward rotation). It does NOT allow you to rear-tether to the floor or front seat frame (to prevent rebound) to pass compliance testing. I am referring ONLY to the compliance (pass/fail) testing, not whether it is permissible in vehicle.

Interesting. So in theory a CMVSS seat could be sold here requiring the use of Aussie style tethering. (Rather than being designed in such a way, and/or being weight/height limited in such a way that downward rotation is kept within limits with nothing 'extra' in use).
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member

Ok, you win a Clek WTF button, a Car-Seat.Org mousepad and a decal for being the forum sleuth of the year!

I can now confirm that Clek acquired some technology patents from FirstSeat. We learned this back at ABC Kids expo when I noted that the "crumple zone" energy absorbing base on the Foonf prototype looked very similar to the FirstSeat concept, but I was asked not to say anything at the time.

The seat itself is not a glorified FirstSeat Revolution. That concept was forward-facing only. The Foonf is essentially designed by Clek from the ground up, but incorporates elements from the base like the patented crumple zone system and rigid LATCH. So, overall similarities are coincidental (you know a lot of carseats look the same from a general perspective).

We have photos of the Revolution prototype here: http://carseatblog.com/4323/abc-kids-expo-its-another-photo-blog-with-a-video-and-commentary-too/ . Our feedback to FirstSeat at the time was that it was a great concept, but that the projected price point was going to be similar to the SafeGuard Child Seat and it would offer an even smaller weight and height range. Given the increasing emphasis on rear-facing, we thought it would need more than rigid LATCH to succeed at that price. The founder mentioned that they would also consider finding a partner who would license their technology to bring it to market. So, perhaps it is no surprise that Clek found it a great concept, too, and added what it really needed to succeed at that price: a rear-facing mode of operation!

Stay tuned for more in 2-3 weeks!
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
CPSDarren said:
Ok, you win a Clek WTF button, a Car-Seat.Org mousepad and a decal for being the forum sleuth of the year!
...

I noted that the "crumple zone" energy absorbing base on the Foonf prototype looked very similar to the FirstSeat concept, but I was asked not to say anything at the time.

Clek should never underestimate the dedication of deranged car seat fanatics.
 

BabyKaykes

New member
Fun Foonf Facts!!! (say that 3x fast!) From their FB page:

A few more Foonf facts...

Seat measurements:

- 12.5" seating depth
- 26.5" seating height
- 17.5" highest harness slot height
- 10.5" lowest harness slot height
- <17" width (at widest point)
- 13" width (at narrowest point - base of seat and RF wedge)

Maximum weight limits:

- RF 45 lbs.
- FF 65 lbs.
 

Mags462

New member
Oh geez.... 45lb RF limit..... this means i must now join the "starting a foonf fund" group :p

If it was only going to be 40 i wouldn't bother, but 45lbs?! Watch out Diono, if this thing installs easily i will never recommend you again ;)

And holy narrow seat batman!!!!! I think i just fell in love :)
 

gsdguenter

New member
I posted my notes from the webinar in the tech forum, but I'll post it here for the non-techs :)

Rf 15lbs. to 45 lbs. max height rf. 43 in min. 25 in (may be able to raise the 43 in to the 1 in. rule when it has been tested with the 6 yr. old dummy)
Ff 20lbs. to 65 lbs. and 49 in. minimum 25 in. (and walking unassisted)
Same stats for Canada and USA except Canada ff is 22 lbs.
Starting price $450
Highly encourage use of top tether with lower anchors, if no top tether then they recommend using lap/shoulder or lap belt to install ff
LATCH allowed up to 48 lbs. unless lower limit given by car manufacturer
Not same rigid LATCH system as used in Oobr
Wedge and anit-rebound bar click onto seat for rfing to achieve snug fit
Fabric cushion pops off to access rf lock offs
TT Australian style is not allowed as it is a single strap, not a v-shaped tether, Swedish style tether has not be tested as the rebound bar does the same job
Green, black paul frank, pink (seats pictured)
Under 51 in. for three across
Three across ff and:
ff,rf,ff
rf,ff,rf
rf,rf,rf
17 inches wide and 13 inches wide at narrowest on base

REACT Rapid Energy Absorbing Crumple Technology
- as it crumples it absorbs impact which then doesn’t get transmitted to passenger (newton’s first law)
force = mass x change in velocity/time -where change in velocity is collision event (30 mph is test standard FMVSS)

to minimize force on an occupant you need to increase time (ie what the crumple does – it slows down the collision forces)
REACT system reduces forces transmitted to the child by up to 40%
Clek tested at 35 mph and it passed
6 in by 8 in is the honeycomb REACT size
magnesium frame with steel rods throughout
as the seat rides forward it crushes the honeycomb to delay the time
seat should not be used after any collision
34.5” from front to back rf
minimum age is 6 months for rf because it is installed at a more upright angle than a newborn would need
32-42.5 degrees is the range you get typically when rfing
MUST be at least 30 degree though
Anti rebound bar is required for use rf as well as wedge
Car seat can touch vehicle seatback when rfing as long as vehicle seat is not lifting the base off of the back vehicle seat
no level line currently but it is being looked at in the next few weeks (two level lines you would need to make sure the seat falls between those two lines)
installation manual is not available until early spring and then will be on the website
Fabrics are removable and washable
3 layers of Energy absorbing material on top of metal frame
12.5” seating depth
17.5” harness slot height max and 10.5” minimum
26.5” seating height
2 crotch belt positions 6 and 7.5 inches from back
integrated magnets to hold buckles
3 recline positions (1 for rf and 2 for ff)
5 harness slots, all of which can be used rf and ff
9 yr. expiration
 

Brigala

Well-known member
Highly encourage use of top tether with lower anchors, if no top tether then they recommend using lap/shoulder or lap belt to install ff

My understanding was that they require the use of the top tether when using the lower anchors, and that if no top tether is available the seat belt must be used. However, they do test for a "variety of misuse" and, as is required by FMVSS the seat will pass testing for occupants up to 48 lbs using the lower anchors alone. But it's still misuse to use lower anchors and no top tether.

Am I the only one who understood it that way?
 

Brigala

Well-known member
If it was only going to be 40 i wouldn't bother, but 45lbs?! Watch out Diono, if this thing installs easily i will never recommend you again ;)

Heehee. It's important to note that the Diono is still about $100-$200 cheaper than the Foonf (depending on trim packages) and depending on the shape of the seat a Radian may still fit in places where a Foonf won't; overall, the base of the Radian is still 2"-3" narrower than most of the base of the Foonf even though the top of the Foonf and part of the base is a little narrower than the top of the Radian.

I am thrilled to have another option on the market for a 45 lb weight limit, though. I'm sure there are places a Foonf will fit that a Radian won't as well!
 

gsdguenter

New member
My understanding was that they require the use of the top tether when using the lower anchors, and that if no top tether is available the seat belt must be used. However, they do test for a "variety of misuse" and, as is required by FMVSS the seat will pass testing for occupants up to 48 lbs using the lower anchors alone. But it's still misuse to use lower anchors and no top tether.

Am I the only one who understood it that way?

I felt like the owner (Chris, I think) and the other guy said sort of different things. The seat passed without the top tether, but for the seat to perform at its best, they want you to use the top tether. If you don't have a top tether they recommend using lap and shoulder or lap only. It was confusing, imo.
 

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