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  1. #101
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by joolsplus3 View Post
    You can see the cosy tot results if you google 'oeamtc kindersitze' it translated into 'cosy dead' for ahwile, because it's originally in german (tot=dead)

    Thanks! I did the search as you suggested and looked at the results. I wish I could read German, but the translated pages were pretty readable. There were some neat looking car seats there for sure. Interestingly the Peg model in their test was the same one here in the States. I'm not sure if they are 100% identical, but it was the only one using the exact same model name.

    I did some other digging and found a really neat page in English concerning having a baby in Vienna. They do an incredible job taking care of their mothers-to-be and moms over there. Check out this little tidbit!
    Car Seats for Babies and Children and the Law

    Car seat laws are applicable for children up until 12 years of age and 1.5m tall. Newborns and up until about 9 months or 9kg need to be in an infant car seat. These are rearward facing and must never be used in any seat with an airbag. If you don't want to buy one, you can rent one from the ÖAMTC. There is a required returnable deposit depending on the model you use.

    The next stage car seat lasts up until 18 kg. After that a booster seat is required. Once they reach the minimum 12 years and are at least 1.5m tall they may sit in the seat with a seatbelt. Austrian law also requires children under 12 to sit in the back.
    The emphasis in the paragraph is mine. Don't we all wish there were similar programs here in the States? Don't you wish the car seat laws were as stringent?

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  3. #102
    Moderator - CPST Instructor griffinmom's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    IIHS does not test car seats for one simple reason. Their funding comes from automobile insurance companies. Insurance companies want to know which car fares better so they can adjust their rates accordingly. While IIHS is certainly interested in occupant protection, they just don't have the child passenger safety seats in mind when they test cars.
    Emily
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  4. #103
    Admin - CPS Technician joolsplus3's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Right, the ISOFIX is the European word for "LATCH" essentially (with rigid metal connectors and no top tether). The support foot they are referring to for the cosy tot is just that, a support foot, no special name

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganthe View Post
    from http://www.maxi-cosi.com
    scroll down and click on "News"

    Right, the ISOFIX is the European word for "LATCH" essentially (with rigid metal connectors and no top tether). The support foot they are referring to for the cosy tot is just that, a support foot, no special name

    Description of Isofix system is near the bottom past their automatically locking restraint system on "Tobi" carseat and International Consumer testing.

    IsoFix: a new method of installing a car seat in a car.
    IsoFix stands for International Standard Organisation FIX.
    IsoFix is a worldwide standardised attachment system for child car seats. The main advantage of IsoFix is that the system makes a rigid connection between the child car seat and the car. This offers extra strength and ensures that the child seat is not too loose which is the main problem with car seats that are fixed with a safety belt for adults. Moreover, with IsoFix the seat is much more easy to install than when a safety belt is used. The main advantage of IsoFix is that it minimises the likelihood of incorrect fitting.

    Car seats have been developed to protect children during an accident. The real safety effect depends on the correct installation, irrespective of the quality of the car seat. All kinds of safety norms and regulations are used in the design of a car aimed at the adults sitting in it, but little or no attention is paid to the safety of children. The seat cushions, safety belts and anchor points are all aimed at the comfort and optimum protection of adults. However, all these systems are also used to attach safety equipment for children. Child car seats are also often fitted incorrectly as it is very difficult to fit them with safety belts for adults.

    A list of the advantages of Maxi-Cosi IsoFix:

    Simple to install

    Excellent test results

    Minimum chance of incorrect installation

    You can see immediately whether the seat is fitted properly
    Extra support leg for additional stability and safety


    How does IsoFix work?
    The idea behind Isofix is simple: With IsoFix you simply click the car seat into the two IsoFix anchor points in the car. The car should have the two IsoFix anchor points and also the car seat should be fitted with IsoFix co nnections. Both the Maxi-Cosi EasyFix and the Maxi-Cosi PrioriFix are fitted with IsoFix connections. The car seat should have a third attachment point to prevent the car seat from tipping forwards. The Maxi-Cosi products (EasyFix, EasyBase and PrioriFix) are fitted with a third attachment point, an extra 'leg' that rests on the car base and the height of which can be adjusted with a simple handle.
    Julie
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  5. #104
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Bump!

  6. #105
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    I just came across Transport Canada's response to the CR article... I think it's a pretty good response actually.

    http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/child...07c02/menu.htm

  7. #106
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by griffinmom View Post
    IIHS does not test car seats for one simple reason. Their funding comes from automobile insurance companies. Insurance companies want to know which car fares better so they can adjust their rates accordingly. While IIHS is certainly interested in occupant protection, they just don't have the child passenger safety seats in mind when they test cars.
    i don't understand. insurance companies want to know which cars fare better in terms of injury/death claims, right? so wouldn't it be in their interest to extend this to injury/death of children and infants as well as adults? or are infant and children deaths rare enough for the insurance companies to deem it not worthwhile/cost effective to do CPS seats?
    Two girls, 7 and 6. Trek Mountain, Specialized Hotrock, Soma Buena Vista, Bike Friday tandem, and multiple other bikes. Oh, and a Mazda5.

  8. #107
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post
    I just came across Transport Canada's response to the CR article... I think it's a pretty good response actually.

    http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/child...07c02/menu.htm
    It's a good response, albeit this part here does give one pause though...

    Transport Canada does not rate, endorse or approve children’s restraint systems and booster cushions. Under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act, Transport Canada develops and enforces the Motor Vehicle Restraint Systems and Booster Cushions Safety Regulations (RSSR). Certification of compliance to the RSSR is the responsibility of the manufacturer or importer ("self-certification"). Manufacturers or importers of children's restraint systems and booster cushions must affix the national safety mark (i.e., a prescribed label with the Canadian maple leaf) to their products to certify they meet all applicable Canadian requirements in effect on the date of manufacture. Transport Canada monitors compliance with the RSSR by providing technical advice to manufacturers, conducting audits of manufacturers' certification documentation, conducting compliance testing, investigating compliance test failures and other non-compliance conditions, and investigating public complaints alleging safety-related defects.
    I don't know, but it seems to me that this paragraph is is basically saying that if there's a problem, it's not us, but the manufacturers who are at fault. The whole "fox guarding the henhouse" scenario.

    I'm not saying there is a problem, or attacking Transport Canada, but I had no idea that they didn't actually test their seats like we do here in the US, or like the EU does. They just give the manufacturers a set of guidelines and tell them to make sure your seats comply. If you say they do, we'll give you the stickers and say they're approved for use in Canada.

    Does this make anyone else just a tad uneasy as well? Is it just my pessimistic nature?

  9. #108
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Consumer Reports Retraction

    http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/ca...ty/004169.html

    Consumer Reports Withdraws Infant Car Seat Report
    Move is Made Pending Additional Testing Now Underway

    NEW YORK (Jan. 18) — Consumer Reports is withdrawing its recent report on infant car seats pending further tests of the performance of those seats in side-impact collisions.

    A new report will be published with any necessary revisions as soon as possible after the new tests are complete.
    We withdrew the report immediately upon discovering a substantive issue that may have affected the original test results. The issue came to light based on new information received Tuesday night and Wednesday morning from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concerning the speed at which our side-impact tests were conducted.

    The original study, published in the February issue of Consumer Reports, was aimed at discovering how infant seats performed in tests at speeds that match those used in the government's New Car Assessment Program (NCAP). This program tests most new vehicles in crashes at speeds of 35 mph for frontal impact and 38 mph for side impact. Child safety seats, in contrast, are currently tested only in front-impact crashes at speeds of 30 mph.
    Our tests were intended to simulate side crashes at the NCAP speed of 38 mph. The new information raises a question about whether the tests accurately simulated that speed, however, so we are now reviewing our tests and the resulting article.

    To those who may have seen the report earlier in print, on the Web, or in broadcasts, we urge you to remember that use of any child seat is safer than no child seat, but to suspend judgment on the merits of individual products until the new testing has been completed and the report re-published.

    We appreciate that manufacturers and particularly NHTSA are engaging directly with us on this article, and we applaud NHTSA for giving serious consideration to the development of side-impact child seat tests. Consumer Reports has long advocated adoption of such tests, since government data show that side crashes account for a significant number of child fatalities.

    We look forward to re-issuing guidance on child-seat safety as soon as possible.

  10. #109
    Senior Community Member super_grape's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Wineaux View Post
    I'm not saying there is a problem, or attacking Transport Canada, but I had no idea that they didn't actually test their seats like we do here in the US, or like the EU does. They just give the manufacturers a set of guidelines and tell them to make sure your seats comply. If you say they do, we'll give you the stickers and say they're approved for use in Canada.
    I think you may have misunderstood what they were saying because TC does test the seats. In fact, my CRST Instructor was one of those responsible for this. It's not as easy as just slapping some stickers on the seats. I promise !
    If that were the case, we'd have the great selection that you all get down south....

  11. #110
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by super_grape View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood what they were saying because TC does test the seats. In fact, my CRST Instructor was one of those responsible for this. It's not as easy as just slapping some stickers on the seats. I promise !
    If that were the case, we'd have the great selection that you all get down south....
    That quote was from TC. I'm not sure how to read it differently. The TC spokesperson says they don't test the seats and instead rely on "self certification." That's their words. Not mine.

    What do I suspect? Typical governmentese. CYA-speak at its finest. Lots of verbiage meaning a whole lot of nothing. I just don't really know. Politicians and governmental workers have been known to say the stupidest things in order to cover their own behinds. Admit to nothing seems to be the safest method of speaking these days for our governments. That way it doesn't bite you in the butt come election day.

    /sigh

  12. #111
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Wineaux View Post
    It's a good response, albeit this part here does give one pause though...



    I don't know, but it seems to me that this paragraph is is basically saying that if there's a problem, it's not us, but the manufacturers who are at fault. The whole "fox guarding the henhouse" scenario.

    I'm not saying there is a problem, or attacking Transport Canada, but I had no idea that they didn't actually test their seats like we do here in the US, or like the EU does. They just give the manufacturers a set of guidelines and tell them to make sure your seats comply. If you say they do, we'll give you the stickers and say they're approved for use in Canada.

    Does this make anyone else just a tad uneasy as well? Is it just my pessimistic nature?
    My take on that paragraph was that they rely primarily on the manufacturers
    testing when they design the car seats, but do checks for compliance regularly and test seats at that time. There's also some other sort of system in place.. but that was my take on it anyways.

  13. #112
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    I would think so, too. On the other hand, I'm sure if it would be a big cost savings to them, they would be pushing for it pretty aggressively. After all, you aren't really testing individual child seats, even in the ECE tests. You are evaluating the vehicle as to how well it protects a child in a typical child restraint.

    This kind of testing will happen as soon as someone does a study that demonstrates a clear (i.e. financial) need for it. It could also happen the other [unfortunate] way these things happen- a death to a child of a politician or other person who can affect such a change.

  14. #113
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post
    Consumer Reports doesn't give the whole story on this. From what I have found, the NHTSA side impact test for vehicles is done at a higher speed than over 95% of side impacts that occur in real crashes. It is true that many do happen at higher speeds, but it isn't very common.

    Also, car seats do indeed have a braking mechanism of a sort. The whole point of securing a car seat to a vehicle is to give the child seat the advantage of the vehicle's crushing frame to ride down the crash. I have been told by crash testing experts that a 30 mph side impact to a typical vehicle would be the rough equivalent of 14-18mph if the a child seat was tested on a laboratory sled. That's not to say that testing at a higher speed isn't valid, but it would be at a significantly higher energy than the overwhelming majority of real world crashes.

    We can certainly ask for our child seats to be safer at these higher speeds, but I would also expect that there would be a much higher cost involved. The question ultimately becomes how safe is needed? At what point are the returns so diminishing that we aren't saving many more lives? Keep in mind that as prices increase, more people are likely not to buy these new seats and their children are more likely to be unrestrained or inadequately restrained in older, used seats. I don't have a good answer for this.
    From what I understand about Consumer Reports' retraction, this did turn out to be the main issue with their testing. They may well have run their sled at 38mph, rather than the much lower speed actually required to simulate a 38mph crash into a vehicle. It will be interesting to see if other flaws were discovered. It's too bad they didn't bother to consult with an industry expert, as many of us have suggested to them numerous times over the years. They could have saved themselves a lot of embarassment. On the other hand, perhaps the extra media headlines are offsetting their lack of expertise in terms of publicity.

  15. #114
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert - (Withdrawn)

    Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to encourage a reviewing period of these tests before they're released to the public in order to keep the confussion down.

  16. #115
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert - (Withdrawn)

    Quote Originally Posted by kpeople View Post
    Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to encourage a reviewing period of these tests before they're released to the public in order to keep the confussion down.
    I agree. I have offered to review their material before publication in the past and I'm sure other independent advocates have as well. Based on their history of car seat review gaffes, it's clear that it is not an area of expertise for them as may be the case for autos or washing machines. Hopefully after this embarassing incident, they can put aside their pride and allow for public (or even private) comments before issuing another report that incites panic among parents.

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