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  1. #61
    Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus Jeanum's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Synchro246 View Post
    Are any of you CR subscribers planning on writing or calling them with these conserns of disclosure?
    Absolutely. Anyone, subscriber or not, can send feedback for that matter. Subscribers with the Feb. '07 print edition are seeing exactly the same article viewable for free up on the website. Everyone who is interested can keep the feedback going.
    Regards,
    Jean

    DD1 Age 16, 66" Driver's Ed
    DD2 Age 12, 64" 5 steps

    Click here if you wish to view the full size version of my avatar

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  3. #62
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanum View Post
    Absolutely. Anyone, subscriber or not, can send feedback for that matter. Subscribers with the Feb. '07 print edition are seeing exactly the same article viewable for free up on the website. Everyone who is interested can keep the feedback going.
    Thanks for the tip-- I didn't even know I could view the whole article for free on line. Whatever I am doing I tend to get to a log in page
    ~Laura™ mom to Seamus (6) in a Regent and Mickey (4) in a ff Myride. Due 6/26/11 with Abigail Tucker, patiently awaiting the install of her Myride.

  4. #63
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    It is generally not recommended to use both LATCH and seatbelt unless allowed in the owner's manual.

    As for the CR comments, I can't really give you an answer. Consumer Reports is rarely forthcoming with any details or explanations. They create a lot of hype and hysteria with articles like these, but then leave it to others to field all the questions. It's not a good situation for the public or for the child passenger safety advocates and technicians.

  5. #64
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Darren, do you have a link for the response from Partners for Child Passenger Safety/CHOP? I can't find it online.

  6. #65
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    granolamom, the britax companion does NOT have a tether.
    sstackho - latch does not necessarily get a tighter fit than a seatbelt. It varies a lot from model to model (of both car and carseat). I do think I get a more secure fit with my Regent with the latch. I have only done seatbelt install once on my MA and still greatly prefer latch on it. I use the seatbelt on my SS because the lockoffs are crazy easy so that's just what I prefer. I don't know why they said that latch is tighter.
    And no, you cannot use both at the same time.
    Kelly, mom to Aaric (7.5 and 65 lbs), Mikayla (6 and 52 lbs), and Xander (20 mo and 25 lbs)
    No more Huskies due to a wreck...
    Xander's in a MA, Mikayla in a GN, Aaric is temporarily in the pink Vivo...
    Graco SS1 due to come out of retirement in Jan 09

  7. #66
    Senior Community Member steph's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    I'm not really worried about the report, should I be?

    First I have to say that Ryan isn't in an infant seat HOWEVER, if he was still in his Keyfit I wouldn't be running out to buy a new seat (the Discovery is another issue but I don't think I would have ever bought that seat anyway ).

    Here is how I feel about it - it is only a matter of a month or two before CR comes out saying what is wrong with convertbles - I mean last year the Marathon was ranked horrible but a 3 n 1 was the top choice

    Second, did you all see the crash test??? A bench (only a bench not a similated car with a front seat and back seat) was used. Plus the bench looked like it was made from those foam pads toddlers use to nap on at daycare - my car doesn't have seats like that - does anyones?

    If you are going to test a carseat at least put it in a simulated car that is actually like real life (i.e. a back seat and front seat).

    I'm not saying to totally disregard the CR - the Evenflo Discovery is an issue but we knew this before the reports came out.

    However, saying seats flew of and went to the back of the seat....mmmm isn't that called cocooning??

    I guess my point is that yes there are some issues and some things need to be addressed and re-tested to make sure they are safe but to go as far as to say that adults are safer in seat belts than infants in carseats is not a good comparision...so would they say infants are safer in seat belts than carseats...of course not.

    I don't like that CR won't release their testing methods. In fact there is something inherently wrong with the idea that they can say a product is faulty and bad and cause widespread panic but not release how they test these products. I'm suprise Graco, Britax, Dorel, etc haven't gone to court over this....it seems that CR should have to release test results in order to publish results like this....JMHO though.
    Steph
    Mom to R (5-steps),
    E and A (riding in Nuna Pipas)

  8. #67
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    I also feel that CR can't possibly be doing these tests in the name of safety for children or they'd gladly release the results at least to the manufacturers. You can't just say - "Hey, your products are unsafe and people shouldn't be buying them!" and expect the situation to improve. You have to say WHY and HOW they are unsafe and tell them how you did the tests. Because in any other scientific study, stats are taken seriously unless they can be replicated by a 3rd party. If they're somehow testing the seats differently, why not tell the manufacturers so that they can truly address these supposed issues!

    I thought the same thing about what it said about the SS and the one other. It says it flew up and then slammed back down. Am I missing something? Is there some sensor in the test sled and some X amount of force in hitting the seatback and seat bottom upon rebound is too much and the SS went over that amount? That just sounds so subjective. Did the seat crack, did it come unbuckled/latched, did it pop off, did the harness fail, etc. WHAT happened to it when it hit the seat back and the seat bottom that made it fail the test? I would also be interested to know where the handle was in the test, actually.
    I'm less concerned now that I think about the part where it says that it failed all 4 parts of the test. i was thinking of that as 4 different failures. But now I assume it's front with seatbelt, side with seatbelt, front with latch, side with latch. Which is why their report just says that it's not a safe install with either seatbelt or latch... but WHY? Ugh!! We need a spy at CR!
    Kelly, mom to Aaric (7.5 and 65 lbs), Mikayla (6 and 52 lbs), and Xander (20 mo and 25 lbs)
    No more Huskies due to a wreck...
    Xander's in a MA, Mikayla in a GN, Aaric is temporarily in the pink Vivo...
    Graco SS1 due to come out of retirement in Jan 09

  9. #68
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by granolamama View Post
    What does ISO stand for?
    from http://www.maxi-cosi.com
    scroll down and click on "News"
    Description of Isofix system is near the bottom past their automatically locking restraint system on "Tobi" carseat and International Consumer testing.

    IsoFix: a new method of installing a car seat in a car.
    IsoFix stands for International Standard Organisation FIX.
    IsoFix is a worldwide standardised attachment system for child car seats. The main advantage of IsoFix is that the system makes a rigid connection between the child car seat and the car. This offers extra strength and ensures that the child seat is not too loose which is the main problem with car seats that are fixed with a safety belt for adults. Moreover, with IsoFix the seat is much more easy to install than when a safety belt is used. The main advantage of IsoFix is that it minimises the likelihood of incorrect fitting.

    Car seats have been developed to protect children during an accident. The real safety effect depends on the correct installation, irrespective of the quality of the car seat. All kinds of safety norms and regulations are used in the design of a car aimed at the adults sitting in it, but little or no attention is paid to the safety of children. The seat cushions, safety belts and anchor points are all aimed at the comfort and optimum protection of adults. However, all these systems are also used to attach safety equipment for children. Child car seats are also often fitted incorrectly as it is very difficult to fit them with safety belts for adults.

    A list of the advantages of Maxi-Cosi IsoFix:

    Simple to install

    Excellent test results

    Minimum chance of incorrect installation

    You can see immediately whether the seat is fitted properly
    Extra support leg for additional stability and safety


    How does IsoFix work?
    The idea behind Isofix is simple: With IsoFix you simply click the car seat into the two IsoFix anchor points in the car. The car should have the two IsoFix anchor points and also the car seat should be fitted with IsoFix co nnections. Both the Maxi-Cosi EasyFix and the Maxi-Cosi PrioriFix are fitted with IsoFix connections. The car seat should have a third attachment point to prevent the car seat from tipping forwards. The Maxi-Cosi products (EasyFix, EasyBase and PrioriFix) are fitted with a third attachment point, an extra 'leg' that rests on the car base and the height of which can be adjusted with a simple handle.
    My Munchkin -- Nov 2008--5 years, 45.5", 42lbs
    Current Stats: 12 years old /5'5/ 115lbs/ Seatbelt

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

  10. #69
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    Re: Consumer Report Infant Car Seat Crash Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by wendytthomas View Post
    The Marathon and Boulevard are both very safe seats. Both have side impact protection, EPS foam, wide harnesses that don't twist, lots of good things. . .

    Wendy

    I thought that the marathon didn't have side-impact protection and the boulevard did.

    I'm off to start a thread asking about EPS foam.
    ~Laura™ mom to Seamus (6) in a Regent and Mickey (4) in a ff Myride. Due 6/26/11 with Abigail Tucker, patiently awaiting the install of her Myride.

  11. #70
    Senior Community Member steph's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    They both have EPS foam the BLVD has added True Side impact Protection around the head area.
    Steph
    Mom to R (5-steps),
    E and A (riding in Nuna Pipas)

  12. #71
    Carseat Crazy
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellyr2 View Post
    granolamom, the britax companion does NOT have a tether.
    Thanks, Kelly. I thought all of the Britax had RF tethers; I guess it's just the convertible models. Oops.

  13. #72
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Sigh.

    OK, I did some research. There were approximately 4.1 million babies born in 2004. FARS recorded 120 crash deaths for children under 1 in 2004. They estimate that 80 of these were using a child restraint. NOPUS reports that 98 percent of children under 1 used a child restraint. So 40 of the estimated 82000 infants not in child seats died which is 48 deaths per 100000 children. 80 of the 4.0 million babies died which is 2 deaths per 100000 children. (The overall rate for passengers of all ages including motorcyclists is 14 to 15 per 100000.)

    I feel like crying. Even if newer standards were developed, it is unlikely they would greatly reduce the fatality rates of infants. Yet how many parents won't use a seat for their infants because "the seats fail anyway, may as well hold them"? If only 94 percent of parents use infants seats it would wipe out the total potential lives saved by improving infant car seats.

    I can't help but agree that CR cannot possibly care about children's safety. Is there a time to take a problem to the public so they can influence manufacturers and the government? Of course. But is this one of them? No, the possible good that could come out of it doesn't outweigh the bad that will come out of it. Further, they refuse to help anyone that could actually fix the problems.

    You’d think that in a car crash, infants in their cozy car seats would be the most protected passengers of all. But you’d be wrong, our tests reveal.
    This is a blatant lie. Infants are included in the favored group of passengers 9 and under that have radically lower fatality rates in vehicle crashes than all other ages. (3.1 per 100000 compared to 14.5 per 100000 overall) They are also included among the favored group of passengers under 5 that have the lowest injury rates of all. (300 per 100000 compared to 950 per 100000 overall) Consumer Reports has not presented any information in this article that refutes that fact. Infants ARE among the most protected passengers of all.

    I don't think it's a bad premise that car seats should be able to withstand the same forces cars do. But it's important to remember that this wouldn't be improvement from a C seat to an A seat. Maybe more like from an A- to an A+. Maybe even from an A to an A+. Both from the aspect of overall passenger safety and from the aspect of reducing infant fatality and disability, this is not a high priority.

    Sorry for my rambling vent. I'm just trying to think things through.

    Julie D.

  14. #73
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Excellent comments. Thank you!

  15. #74
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    ok someone else pointed this out in chat but I see it as well. CR's website shows a still of one evenflo infant seat seperating from the base, and a video of the other. These 2 arent the same seat, or not the same version????
    One has that release handle that is like an open circle and the other doesnt, also the bases are different.

    Can anyone tell which is which? I guess both evenflo seats failed then, but can they not label stuff right?
    “Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes...
    That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away AND you have their shoes.”

  16. #75
    CPS Technician emandbri's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvBug03 View Post
    ok someone else pointed this out in chat but I see it as well. CR's website shows a still of one evenflo infant seat seperating from the base, and a video of the other. These 2 arent the same seat, or not the same version????
    One has that release handle that is like an open circle and the other doesnt, also the bases are different.

    Can anyone tell which is which? I guess both evenflo seats failed then, but can they not label stuff right?
    The one in the video is the disovery, I had one for my 7 year old. The one in the still shots must be the embrace. So now we know two of the 4 seats that flew off the base.

    Emily tech and mom to Jacob 16, Daniel 13, Benjamin 9, Elizabeth 6. Child care provider to 4 other kiddos.

  17. #76
    CPS Technician emandbri's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    I'm finding it very odd that they recomend the snugride with EPS foam when it looks like they didn't test any of the snugrides without the foam.

    Emily tech and mom to Jacob 16, Daniel 13, Benjamin 9, Elizabeth 6. Child care provider to 4 other kiddos.

  18. #77
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Hello!

    First post here. My wife and I are expecting our first child on July 5th, and of course I am doing all the requisite research on car seats, strollers, and the like. I figure, get all my ducks in row before it gets too late, or I begin to freak out at the impending birth!

    So, I viewed the Consumer Reports segment on the Early Show the other day with great interest. I had been lurking here and reading reviews and posts for a week or two before the segment aired, so I rushed here to see what the folks here had to say.

    There were several things that struck me in the CR article that seemed to have been missed in the replies. Someone eluded to it, but never really took it head on. That is the fact that a Britax European model outperformed all the other car seats, including the US model Britax, which failed the test! I have included the link to the Euro car seat article below.

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/b...seats_euro.htm

    I have seen several people mention the fact that they tested the Graco SafeSeat with a 30lb dummy, and only used 22lb dummies for the other car seats. Yes they did. They tested the seats based upon the manufacturers maximum "claimed" weight for the seats.
    We used a test dummy weighing the maximum claimed weight for each seat. That’s 30 pounds for the Graco SafeSeat and 22 pounds for the others.
    Consumers will use their seats to the manufacturers maximum quite a lot of the time. I'm quite certain that many people purchased the Graco SafeSeat for the very reason that they could keep their child in that seat for a longer period of time, saving them money.

    The crash test speeds were also mentioned. That they were higher than the NHTSA's standard tests. Sorry, but many accidents occur at higher speeds than that tested by the NHTSA. In fact, they test car seats at a lower speed than the cars they are traveling in! Um... Do the car seats have a breaking mechanism that slows them down in a crash to lower than the vehicle they are in? I think not.

    From reading the article, and the companion European article, it is quite obvious that the NHTSA tests are not adequate. When a company, Britax, makes a car seat for the European market which is safer than the ones they sell here in the US, we should be paying close attention! The European crash safety standards are MUCH stricter than they are here in the US.

    There is exactly ONE reason that a seat, or at the very least the technology of said seat, made for more exacting standards is not sold in the US. That reason is profit. The US is a self contained market, and if you do not have to add parts which will add to the manufacturing cost of an item, even if it is for added safety, then your profit margins are LARGER. That's it folks.

    The pseudo excuse given by the Britax spokeswoman in the above linked article is particularly telling. "Britax spokeswoman Jeanna Rimmer says that nuances in the regulations and consumer preferences of different countries mean that manufacturers must create different car seats for different markets."

    Consumer preferences? Are they insinuating that we "prefer" to have car seats which are less safe than the ones Britax manufactures for the European market? Of course not. It's this phrase that tells the rather obvious truth: "nuances in the regulations". The "nuance" in the regulations is that we have LESS strict regulations than they have in Europe, and so they can save money by not including the added safety features that are REQUIRED in Europe!

    I don't work for CR, Britax, or any other company that makes or sells car seats. I am a VERY concerned new parent, and someone whom has always been a very vocal and forceful advocate for consumer rights. I personally do not let companies get away with jack when it comes to the products and services they sell. Put up, or shut up is my philosophy. I tend to make the companies I deal with "put up" on a regular basis. You know the old adage? "The squeaky wheel get the grease?" I'm that squeaky wheel...

    So what car seat should I buy? Well, I am certainly looking at the top two performers, but the article I linked above has me thinking beyond that. I'm now looking at online companies selling the Britax Cosy Tot and the ISOFIX base. My mother travels to England on a regular basis, and I very well may have her buy us this car seat and an extra ISOFIX base for my car. I'll be contacting Britax to find our which of their US made car seats will fit on the ISOFIX base as well.

    Has anyone here ever ordered a car seat from overseas? Has anyone used one of these European ISOFOX type bases that add in the rebound bar and the "foot" that attaches to the floorboard of your vehicle? Any help is of course greatly appreciated, and I will report back what I get from Britax regarding their ISOFIX base. I see that Graco also makes an ISOFOX base as well, and I'll be checking with them to see if their US seats are compatible with that base as well.

    Sorry about the long first post, but this is MY first child we're talking about here, and I am not at all thrilled that our government is "compromising" my child's safety to help car seat manufacturers improve their bottom line and make their shareholders happier...

  19. #78
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Thank you for your comments. You make a lot of great points. It's too bad that Consumer Reports is not available to respond to issues regarding the hysteria they have created.

    As for using a European seat, I would generally not recommend it. While it is true that their standards may be stricter in some areas, they may not be as strict in others. There are a large number of differences, and they are not as black and white as CR suggests. I would much rather see concerned parents buying convertible restraints and use them rear-facing, as these seats do not have the same issue of detaching from a base.

    Our federal standards are in need of an update, especially for side impact testing of child restraints. Sadly, this is a slow process that has been going for many years and may take many more. Hopefully, Consumer Reports will speed up the process.

    You may be interested to know that the discontinued Britax Baby Safe had a rigid ISOFIX base and a foot, very much like the European version (I believe the Cozy Tot and Baby Safe were nearly the same model). It was very expensive, however, and this may be part of the reason it was discontinued. Thus the comment about consumer preferences, perhaps- consumers in the USA did not recognize the benefits at the time and were not willing to spend the extra money.

  20. #79
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    You may be interested to know that the discontinued Britax Baby Safe had a rigid ISOFIX base and a foot, very much like the European version. It was very expensive, however, and this may be part of the reason it was discontinued. Thus the comment about consumer preferences, perhaps- consumers in the USA did not recognize the benefits at the time and were not willing to spend the extra money.
    The added expense most certainly came from the fact that they were only making and selling one car seat with that base and feature. If it were required by law, and the manufacturers were required to put it on all of their car seats, then economies of scale would drastically lower the costs. Sure, there would be price increases for car seats, but there were price increases in cars when they added safety belts and air bags, and we don't question the increased safety and reduced loss of life from those added safety benefits now do we?

    Remember, the automobile manufacturers fought tooth and nail to keep the government from requiring safety belts and air bags in our cars. They claimed it would cost too much and consumers wouldn't spend the money. Uh yeah... It just meant that their profit margins shrunk a bit. Not requiring side impact tests, and having lower crash test speeds than the cars that car seats are inside of is not a compromise that I want to see our government make. The NHTSA should be creating tests that are designed with the safety of our children in mind, and not the financial stability of the manufacturer.

    In what areas are the European car seats less safe than those in the US? Which standards are less stringent? Is it strictly the way that the back seats are designed? Even if the European seats are not designed for LATCH, and the CR article is pretty clear that without using the LATCH system many of the car seats that failed would not have done so, wouldn't they attach correctly using a seat belt tether?

    What can I say? I'm looking for both safety and guidance here. My wife wants a travel system, at least at the early stages so we can get our child in and out of the car, and onto a stroller, without waking them. That seems to call for a car seat with a base and matching stroller. After the first year or so, I am heavily leaning towards the new Sunshine Kids Radian80 that has the EPS foam and looks like it will stay with us until it's time for or child to stop using car seats at all. Any thoughts? Suggestions?

  21. #80
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: Consumer Reports Safety Alert

    Quote Originally Posted by Wineaux View Post
    The crash test speeds were also mentioned. That they were higher than the NHTSA's standard tests. Sorry, but many accidents occur at higher speeds than that tested by the NHTSA. In fact, they test car seats at a lower speed than the cars they are traveling in! Um... Do the car seats have a breaking mechanism that slows them down in a crash to lower than the vehicle they are in? I think not.
    Consumer Reports doesn't give the whole story on this. From what I have found, the NHTSA side impact test for vehicles is done at a higher speed than over 95% of side impacts that occur in real crashes. It is true that many do happen at higher speeds, but it isn't very common.

    Also, car seats do indeed have a braking mechanism of a sort. The whole point of securing a car seat to a vehicle is to give the child seat the advantage of the vehicle's crushing frame to ride down the crash. I have been told by crash testing experts that a 30 mph side impact to a typical vehicle would be the rough equivalent of 14-18mph if the a child seat was tested on a laboratory sled. That's not to say that testing at a higher speed isn't valid, but it would be at a significantly higher energy than the overwhelming majority of real world crashes.

    We can certainly ask for our child seats to be safer at these higher speeds, but I would also expect that there would be a much higher cost involved. The question ultimately becomes how safe is needed? At what point are the returns so diminishing that we aren't saving many more lives? Keep in mind that as prices increase, more people are likely not to buy these new seats and their children are more likely to be unrestrained or inadequately restrained in older, used seats. I don't have a good answer for this.

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