Thinking out loud

mommaon112903

New member
We all know that a broken leg can be fixed, wheather FF or RF-that is not up for deabte but what I *am* wondering is how severe/or possible a broken leg/hip could be while the child is FF and their legs proped up aganist the back of the passenger seat. This is how Josef has been riding in his Regent (he rides in the am in the Regent with me, and in the pm in the Parkway), so he is "tired and I am comfy this way".

I know in a FF crash broken legs are very possible, but what I am starting to think about is my child sitting with his legs already up in the air in the event of an accident. Would it harm his hips though, which a broken hip can lead to massive internal injury and even death.

Maybe am I over-thinking things, so if I am feel free to laugh :p
 
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Jennee

New member
hmmm good question, ill be watching this. we have a montana and there is very little room between the 1st and 2nd rows and dawson often has his feet up on the seat in front of him.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
We teach that one of the five steps for safe seatbelt use is sitting with knees at the edge of the seat, and we sometimes assess booster fit by checking where the knees bend. From this, I would extrapolate that it it's important to have knees bending at the edge of the seat, and I would encourage the child to sit that way.
 

loverbugsmommy

New member
there are more severe injuries possible in a ff carseat then a broken leg, i mean yes you dont want your child to ever get injured, but im sure that you would much rather have your child break his leg than break his neck...

aside from that, im sure it depends on the speed of the impact on how bad the injuries that he would sustain...maybe if your worried about his hips and legs, try putting him in the middle instead of the size... how old is he and is he in a booster or 5 point harness?
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
Honestly, overthinking it.

The way the legs fly around ffing, they end up hitting the front seats regardless of starting position. If anything, being propped up already should just give them less distance to travel and give them less momentum when they do hit the front seat.
 

Maedze

New member
"The knees bent at the end of the seat" thingie is due to the fact that kids whose knees don't make it to the edge tend to slouch forward to be comfortable, thus misplacing the seatbelt. That wouldn't be a concern in a five point harness due of course to the crotch strap.

That being said, I do think there is cause for concern. Legs can get broken in accidents, and we all have seen the videos about how dramatically and strongly the limbs fly forward. Particularly if the knee is 'locked' at the point of impact, the energy will travel up the leg into the femur, and femur/hip injuries can be very dangerous due to the proximity to the femoral artery.

This is why you're told, if you're falling feet first, to land with a bend in the leg rather than knees locked.
 

mommaon112903

New member
This is what got me thinking...

That being said, I do think there is cause for concern. Legs can get broken in accidents, and we all have seen the videos about how dramatically and strongly the limbs fly forward. Particularly if the knee is 'locked' at the point of impact, the energy will travel up the leg into the femur, and femur/hip injuries can be very dangerous due to the proximity to the femoral artery.

This is why you're told, if you're falling feet first, to land with a bend in the leg rather than knees locked.

And this is why so many children end up breaking their wrists when they fall :(
 

spokaneCPST

CPST Instructor
I think I would discourage it in the booster, at least if I am imagining it correctly. My DD used to want to put her feet up on the shoulder area of the seat in front of her, which caused the seatbelt to slide up on her abdomen. Obviously, not good in a crash. If his legs are just out and against the back of your seat, it may not be that big of a deal for the abdominal injuries, but still could cause the leg injuries as other people have said. Plus, I can't stand the kids pushing on my seat!
 
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safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
We teach that one of the five steps for safe seatbelt use is sitting with knees at the edge of the seat, and we sometimes assess booster fit by checking where the knees bend. From this, I would extrapolate that it it's important to have knees bending at the edge of the seat, and I would encourage the child to sit that way.


The reason for needing the knees to bend over the edge for the 5 step test is because children cannot stay sitting all the way back without slouching if they can't. There is no causal relationship between knees bending and lower extremity injury that I am aware of.

Lower leg breaks in car crashes or usually the result of the leg swinging forward and "kicking" into something and causing a break or of the foot being braced against the floor with the knee locked and the weight load breaking the ankle. It is very hard to break a leg by pushing on the bottom of the foot with the knee and hip flexed because the leg will just bend farther.

Upper leg injuries are usually the result of the knee sliding forward and colliding with a forward structure and snapping the femur. (also damaging the knee joint)

Both types upper and lower leg injuries are common in car crashes, more so even for adults that kids.

Hip/pelvis injuries are rare in car crashes and usually result from crushing or from a leg being abducted in the pelvis (doing the splits essentially) It is very very difficult to flex your leg toward your chest far enough to damage your hip. Your body gets in the way before that can happen. I'd be more concerned with the head hitting the upraised knees that anything. The back of the hip socket is very strong. Shoving the leg straight back breaks the femur before the hip socket gives way.
 

mommaon112903

New member
Let's just say he has been booster trained nicely enough that the "look" works very nicely-he sits like a prince in his boosters :thumbsup: It is only in the Regent that he does it, and the Regent is installed outboard on the passenger side and I NEVER have a passenger with me, minus Josef.

I think I would discourage it in the booster, at least if I am imagining it correctly. My DD used to want to put her feet up on the shoulder area of the seat in front of her, which caused the seatbelt to slide up on her abdomen. Obviously, not good in a crash. If his legs are just out and against the back of your seat, it may not be that big of a deal for the abdominal injuries, but still could cause the leg injuries as other people have said. Plus, I can't stand the kids pushing on my seat!

I do very much dislike all the dirt that is on my seat now! Hmm...thinking I Josef may have something to do this afternoon :p
 

Pixels

New member
Can you move the front passenger seat up any more, or fold it forward? Some vehicles don't allow you to travel with a seat folded forward, others do. Then he might not be able to reach, ending the discussion/worry.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Honestly, overthinking it.

The way the legs fly around ffing, they end up hitting the front seats regardless of starting position. If anything, being propped up already should just give them less distance to travel and give them less momentum when they do hit the front seat.

And in a frontal crash, the front seat will fly forward somewhat and out of reach of the legs...and then when everyone stops and falls backward, it will be at the same time, too.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKIeExpDLDA"]YouTube - Crash Test - Forward vs. Rear Facing[/ame] (of course, no one should put their RF kid in the front seat if they have an active airbag, but this is the most realistic car crash test I could find showing how the legs fly forward into a seatback... and yes, whether the legs are up on the seatback or dangling down, it's a significant source of injury, unfortunately :()
 

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