What GM van to buy?

Reliablilty is perception!

Totally agree with you! I had a old VW jetta as my first car and that thing was a hunk of junk it was always broken down!

With that said I did lease a 2005 Audi (which is a glorified VW) and I love it but I would never buy one or intend on having one for 5+ years.

Like I said my opinion is based on my experience and not any reports or statistics!

saa2006 said:

I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way and who knows if there is facts to support this but IMHO American cars just don't last like the foreign competetors.

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You can get a lemon in any brand or model. If you believe Consumer Reports, the reliability of most vehicles is quite good today and there isn't much difference among them.

In fact, the difference between a typical "above average" model (half red reliability projection) and a typical "below average" model (half black circle) is less than 1 problem over all of the first 3 years of ownership on average.

Unfortunately, Consumer Reports normalizes all their data and disguises it in relative numbers and percentages. You have to do a bit of digging and some math to get the absolute numbers. Presumably if everyone know the differences weren't all that great, it wouldn't be a good selling point. In any case, there is still the "Much Worse Than Average" category (full black circle). Models in that category are not bounded by a lower limit and can have substantially more problems. While those models might be avoided, just about anything else should be pretty reliable IMO.

Jeanum said:

Agreed, Darren. I find it ironic that GM went to the expense of adding a hybrid Vue model to their product lineup for 2007 but still didn't make ESC available on the Vue, even though its Vue-based Chevrolet Equinox and Pontiac Torrent counterparts do have ESC. I used to be one of Saturn's biggest boosters, but I'm irked at the departure from plastic body panels and the lack of competitive safety features. (off soapbox for the evening now, I promise )

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The reason in the hybrid being added was b/c it was supposed to be in the '05 model so it was already designed for the current model.

As for ESC GM is on the way to adding it to all their models. But, Remember GM is the world's largest automaker and have over 80 models and it takes time. When you have Honda or Toyota that have 1/3rd the models of course they can make those changes quicker. Also remember those models have recently in the past few years have had a refresh or redesigned. So, Finanically it was a good oppertunity to add features to the vehicle.

Also the benefits of ESC is reletively a new thing. Several years ago we didn't know it's true benefits. As we have learned through crash testing data we have learned the wonderful benefits of ESC. So, It does take time for those things to be implemented.

For models that already have ABS/Traction Control, all it really takes to add ESC is a corporate philosophy about safety over profits. It doesn't take much time or effort, though it is a small incremental cost per vehicle.

CPSDarren said:

For models that already have ABS/Traction Control, all it really takes to add ESC is a corporate philosophy about safety over profits. It doesn't take much time or effort, though it is a small incremental cost per vehicle.

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While it maybe a small cost per vehicle it could be a costly expense for engineering, retooling the plant, etc... I can see why automakers would wait a model year or two if that model was about to come up for redesign.

Now if GM doesn't offer it in the new VUE that is something to talk about.

ETA:
I just went and looked up the new VUE/Opel Antara and it does and will offer the ESP (GM's name for ESC) in the new model year.

The majority of the components are already there if you have ABS and traction control. Sure you can wait for 5 years or more like they did on the Vue. Or you can take the philosophy that Toyota did for its SUVs, even if you charge extra for an option at first to cover the costs. GM doesn't really have all that many more passenger vehicles than Toyota. When you consider all the nearly identical models under different badges that share the same platform and vary only by a few small aesthetic changes, the main difference is that GM has many more badges than Toyota/Lexus. If you change the plant for one model, you are doing it for all the others on the same line, too.

The hybrid thing is another good one for philosophy. Toyota has been churning out full hybrids for years and Honda almost as long. What do the "Big 3" have? The Escape/Mariner is the only one. GM does have some psuedo hybrids in the Vue Greenline and Silverado/Sierra. A step forward but still late to the party IMO.

It's not hard to see why GM is losing money with junk credit ratings. They simply aren't producing what many people want. They don't have the corporate philosophy that has promoted safety and fuel economy like Honda and Toyota, plus they are just now catching up on quality. They have a labor force that is extremely expensive and has enough power to slow any change. I mean, they've had what, over 30 years since the last gas crisis that let the Japanese auto makers get a foothold? When the latest oil crisis came around, the Japanese had great, profitable hybrids and high economy gas powered compacts while the Big 3 continued to rely on SUVs and trucks for profits.

I'll pay more to buy American if the product is at least the same as something made elsewhere in terms of features, quality, safety, etc. I think it's important to support the domestic economy if I can be sure the product has significantly more domestic content. On the other hand, I wouldn't even pay less for an American product if I feel the quality or features don't measure up to the competition, just to support bungling management and an inefficient labor union. Then there's always the problem of what to do when you are choosing between something like a Ford made in Mexico vs. a Nissan made in Tennessee...

Just peer over the top models on these lists for a comparison-

http://www.informedforlife.org/demos/FCKeditor/UserFiles/File/2007SCORE.pdf

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/overall-high.htm

Yeah, the Big 3 have some top models, but the majority are Japanese. This is why the US automakers are in trouble. Yes, consumers have perceptions of quality, safety, fuel economy and other features, but in many cases they are for a good reason.

jen_nah said:

ETA:
I just went and looked up the new VUE/Opel Antara and it does and will offer the ESP (GM's name for ESC) in the new model year.

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Sadly, no plastic panels on the new one I hear. Saturn will basically have almost no differentiation from the other GM brands, other than perhaps the dealers. I hope they have a model that is competitive for our preferences when my wife is ready to replace her Outback. The LW2 was our other choice back in 1999, based on our good luck with our two SL2s. Much as I wanted to like it, we both preferred the Outback. Maybe things will be different next time, especially if the new Vue is a winner.

jen_nah said:

I just went and looked up the new VUE/Opel Antara and it does and will offer the ESP (GM's name for ESC) in the new model year.

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Cool, ESC at last on the Vue. According to http://www.saturnfans.com/Cars/VUE/2008/vueproductionmexico.shtml the redesigned Vue will hit showrooms in June 2007 as a 2008 model. That's pretty soon if they stick to their schedule. Vue production is moving to Mexico for the new model. Fingers crossed it will do well in crash tests.

FWIW, our '93 Suburban has over 200k miles, and the S-10 that dh's boss purchased in '98 has nearly 300k mi. Neither one is anywhere near needing major repairs. The engine and drive train on the Suburban will likely last another 80-100k miles. We've always had GM vehicles and not a lemon among them - yet the Nissan van we had gave us nothing but trouble - come to find out it had been recalled and the dealer we bought it from claimed to not know about that when he sold it to us.

We had a '91 Saturn and a '95 Cirrus, first year models of brand new platform vehicles. Both had some minor issues but no major engine or transmission problems or anything else of great expense or hassle. I had a couple alternators go on the Saturn but that was a pretty typical problem.

darn, i wish i had found this forum earlier! :evil grin:

wonderful discussion!!!

southpawboston said:

darn, i wish i had found this forum earlier! :evil grin:

wonderful discussion!!!

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Most vehicles today are relatively safe, at least when equipped with safety features that are optional in some trim levels. Compared to models from just 10 years ago, there have been significant improvements- especially for SUVs and trucks. There are some exceptions, but many of those are either models that have not been tested or economy models that don't even have some safety features available.

The same is true of reliability. Most of todays models are quite reliable, with just a small number of exceptions. I participated in a discussion with a Consumer Reports moderator at their forums a while back. They all but confirmed that the differences between a typical new model with a "half red" circle reliability projection and one with a "half black" circle was not even one problem over a 3-year warranty period but still felt their ratings circles portrayed the underlying numbers in the best manner. Their only comeback was that the difference between the least reliable models (those with a full black circle and an unbounded reliability category) and most relaible (full red circle) was still substantial. Duh!

That one was also an amusing discussion- the typical models used were a Honda Civic and Chevy Cavalier. They clung to the fact that the Cavalier had double the problem rate. What they wouldn't outright acknowledge, even after being shown the math with their own numbers, was that even though the rate was double, it was also so low that the absolute number of problems was nearly zero. It compounded to a difference of only 0.6 problems over the first three years of ownership. Even for owners who keep cars 7 years, it amounted to a only a few more problems over that whole time- not nearly what you might expect seeng black vs. red in the magazine print.

Anyway, the point is that it's not easy to find an "unreliable" or "unsafe" vehicle on new car lots today, at least in my opinion. Some are certainly better than others, but most are pretty reasonable.

In a few years, models will be even safer, if only because things like side curtain airbags and stability control will be standard across the board. That will help especially for many economy models where they are still hard to find on lots or not even available.