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  1. #21
    Senior Community Member Dillipop's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I know my cavalier and buick were assembled in canadian plants...but my hyundai was assembled in the US.


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  3. #22
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Splash View Post
    I don't want to helplessly nitpick, but do you own any appliances? Any clothing? Toys? Televisions? Computers? Shoes?

    There is absolutely no way to buy only made in America things. By saying you refuse to let your hard earned money go overseas, you're implying that you never buy anything not made in America. And that is completely impossible.
    I am not talking cheap items that can be bought daily. I am talking about big finanical items. Our vehicles are our 2nd biggest finanical purchese (1st being your home). We refuse to spend $30k on a vehicle from a forgein owned company.

    You can talk all you want about Honda & Toyota having plants here but look at how many employees GM alone employees. Look at how many plants GM alone has here. Look at how much of your bottom dollar stays here in the US to help the US economy compared to Honda or Toyota. It can't compare. We are talking BILLIONS of dollars that GM alone helps our economy. Let's not throw in Ford & DC in there.

    Here is a snip of an article by JD Power last year.

    “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”


    82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
    At Honda, it’s 49%
    At Toyota, it’s 41%
    Nissan? 38%
    BMW? 11%

    (by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda)

    GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

    The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

    GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

    GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

    Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  4. #23
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvBug03 View Post
    And actually we have a honda plant and a kia(or is it hyundai) right in my state that makes these things, so technically the ones coming from these plants are made in the US lol!(not sure if the part are shipped here or not? I dont know exactly how a vehicle is made, but thanks to the honda plant we have a MUCH lower rate of unemployment, they will hire anyone that is trainable and they pay well).
    I can't say for unemployment but I can say for on the job injuries.

    Here is a direct quote from a JD Power article.

    And then there's the myth of the happy, teamwork-oriented worker who labors in a unionless paradise surrounded by
    caring Japanese employers who only have his or her best interest at heart.

    Fact: Toyota workers work for less money and are five times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on-the-job
    injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  5. #24
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanum View Post
    Yup, a lot of "foreign" brands have plants in the U.S. now, and vice versa. Some of the "foreign" vehicles built at U.S. plants have higher domestic content than "domestic" brands, depending on the model. I realize the profits still can go overseas, though. I used to be a die-hard buy American car customer but now safety ratings and overall fuzziness of what's foreign vs. domestic have made it more of a secondary consideration for me and my family. Even my WWII veteran father, who bitterly swore never to consider a Japanese car after a scary encounter with a kamikaze pilot, has conceded on globalization and has not disowned me for driving a Sienna.
    Trust me I take safety into a HUGE consideration when we buy our vehicles too. I can buy just as safe of vehicle from an American owned automaker as I can from a foreign. I won't ever own a minivan so that isn't even a thought. I live in Texas where 1 out of every 4 vehicle sold is a truck. So, I prefer a SUV. I currently have a Tahoe but will most likely be getting a Saturn VUE or Torrant in a 1 1/2yrs when my lease is up. At that time towing won't be an issue for us as it was when we bought my Tahoe. I am also looking at the Saturn Outlook but since it's a brand new model I am waiting for crash testing data on it. But, I can get those same great 5 star crash rating in my American vehicles as I can in a foreign vehicle.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  6. #25
    CPS Advocate lovinwaves's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Being that it is my 2nd biggest financial purchase in my life, I choose to buy something I am totally Happy, and in love with...
    If US engineering was closer to foreign engineering I would love to purchase American, but I just don't "feel the love", safety, or quality in an American Engineered vehicle.

    I'm glad there are people that Love American cars and still continue to purchase them. That is why there are different colors when you purchase a car. Everyone is different, and everyones likes are different...

    I prefer, Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura, BMW, and VW. I don't however love every Foreign maker.

    Just my honest opinion
    Melissa
    Peyton 10
    Camden 9
    And a new baby on the way

  7. #26
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by lovinwaves View Post
    Being that it is my 2nd biggest financial purchase in my life, I choose to buy something I am totally Happy, and in love with...
    If US engineering was closer to foreign engineering I would love to purchase American, but I just don't "feel the love", safety, or quality in an American Engineered vehicle.

    I'm glad there are people that Love American cars and still continue to purchase them. That is why there are different colors when you purchase a car. Everyone is different, and everyones likes are different...

    I prefer, Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura, BMW, and VW. I don't however love every Foreign maker.

    Just my honest opinion
    Okay I understand you wanting to buy a vehicle your like/love. But, Safety & Quality are ones preception. I am just saying there are just as safe and just as good quality wise American made vehicles. All I see around here is those that jump on others when they say they want a SUV or American automaker vehicle.

    I mean your very 1st post to the OP was "I would not recommend a GM van of any year, mainly because of safety." When the OP stated it must be a GM vehicle. How is that being helpful in the OP question? There are people out there and on here that refuse to buy foreign.

    I guess it's a good thing GM is leaving the minivan market all together. They feel it's not a profitable market anymore for them. When minivans only make up less then 10% of the market and DCX holds the reins on the most minivans sold then any automaker.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  8. #27
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I dont know if that is true for the other plants, but for the plant here it is not. Our plant is wonderful and has offered a lot of quality jobs with better wages to people who otherwise would be unemployeed or making minimum wage. Our cost of living here is minimal though, a certain wage per hour to someone out of this area would be laughable, but to the people here that same wage could be the difference between needing welfare and having their own home.

    Personally I dont care about that stuff right now because what I have was given to me and it will be a long time before I have to worry about buying anything again. When it is then I can decide how I feel. But since buying a vehicle made by the local plant would benefit my economy better than buying one made by a plant outside of the area, I will probably choose a locally made one, despite what brand it is. I know the money and taxes will go to benefit my neighbors, so that is why I will pick it. That of course is assuming everything is still the same in the +years when I decide to get something new.
    Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes...
    That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away AND you have their shoes.

  9. #28
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I always try to buy American if all else is equal. Finding a vehicle with the features I want that has top safety ratings usually makes things unequal, though.

    It's fine to buy American. It's also fine to point out the pros and cons of vehicles, especially in regards to safety since that is the point of this forum.

    Personally, it amazes me that GM and Chrysler haven't been able to match the minivan crash test results and safety features that Honda and Toyota have had since 1998-1999. Kia managed top ratings with only it's second generation minivan after what, 5 years in the minivan market?

    Ford has managed to produce some SUVs and minivans with very competitive safety ratings. With the possible exception of the Pacifica (more of a glorified wagon IMO), Chrysler and GM have not.

    That's not to say the GM vans are unsafe. In fact, they should protect their occupants reasonably well compared to most vehicles on the road. They still don't match up with the results of the current generation Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai and Ford minivans. How important that difference is to a buyer will vary from one to another, based on other factors that may be more important.

    IMO, Japan is not our worst enemy as far as jobs go. South Korea isn't a major threat, either. They have similar cost of living, environmental protections and other factors as we do. It's China, India and the other Asian nations that can do everything we can do for a fraction of the cost. Just wait until they start shipping cars here...

  10. #29
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post
    I always try to buy American if all else is equal. Finding a vehicle with the features I want that has top safety ratings usually makes things unequal, though.

    It's fine to buy American. It's also fine to point out the pros and cons of vehicles, especially in regards to safety since that is the point of this forum.

    Personally, it amazes me that GM and Chrysler haven't been able to match the minivan crash test results and safety features that Honda and Toyota have had since 1998-1999. Kia managed top ratings with only it's second generation minivan after what, 5 years in the minivan market?

    Ford has managed to produce some SUVs and minivans with very competitive safety ratings. With the possible exception of the Pacifica (more of a glorified wagon IMO), Chrysler and GM have not.

    That's not to say the GM vans are unsafe. In fact, they should protect their occupants reasonably well compared to most vehicles on the road. They still don't match up with the results of the current generation Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai and Ford minivans. How important that difference is to a buyer will vary from one to another, based on other factors that may be more important.

    IMO, Japan is not our worst enemy as far as jobs go. South Korea isn't a major threat, either. They have similar cost of living, environmental protections and other factors as we do. It's China, India and the other Asian nations that can do everything we can do for a fraction of the cost. Just wait until they start shipping cars here...
    See IMO I find buying sendin a major chunk of my money to foreign land is a threat to "MY" country. It effects our economy and our citizens.

    I just hate coming to this part of this forum and finding post after post cramming either minivans and foreign minivans down peoples throats. When a poster like the OP did asked about a certain automaker they immeditaly went off on how unsafe a GM minivan is.

    Just an ex: I have seen several post on here when someone asks about wanting a safe SUV. I hardly ever see anyone on here mention the Saturn VUE or Pontiac Torrant but I see Honda Pilot, Acura MDX, Honda CRV, Toyota Highlander. But, What about the other 5 star crash rating SUV's on the market that are not foreign vehicles. The Saturn VUE & Pontiac Torrant come with side curtain airbags on all rows. LATCH in all 3 seating positions, ESC, great gas mileage, Hybrid models, plus all the bells and whistles (dvd players, On Star, nav system, etc...). A lot on here just immeditaly say Honda or Toyota with out giving factual information either. JMHO!

    We as member on here have to some of the times step back and take our opinions/feelings out of the equalizion and answer the question based on what the OP asked.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  11. #30
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CPSDarren View Post
    Personally, it amazes me that GM and Chrysler haven't been able to match the minivan crash test results and safety features that Honda and Toyota have had since 1998-1999. Kia managed top ratings with only it's second generation minivan after what, 5 years in the minivan market?
    I think GM hasn't put a lot into their minivan platform in several years due to knowing they were pulling out of that market. In the next year or two GM will not have a minivan platform at all. So why invest money in a platform when you don't have a good market hold on it plus when you have plans to do away with those models anyways. Chrysler must still be doing something right in the minivan market as they are still the number 1 selling minivan over Honda & Toyota.

    But, My opinion is all minivans are ugly. Maybe practical but not my cup of tea. They just don't "WOW" me.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  12. #31
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    My only issue with the Vue is that GM neglected to submit one for testing with the side curtain airbags to the IIHS. Without them, the side impact result from the IIHS is poor. With them, who knows? Had GM only made those side curtain airbags and stability control standard like Toyota does on most of its SUVs, then we might be able to talk about parity.

  13. #32
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Nonetheless, this does apply to the original poster's question. Whatever the reasons, that GM is pulling out of the minivan market might affect their decision.

    In the same fashion, if a poster comes to the forums saying they want a recommendation for a FF combination seat for their 10 month old, it's also reasonable to give them options for rear-facing covertibles. They don't have to take the advice, of course, but if there is a safer option they should be informed about it.

  14. #33
    Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus Jeanum's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    My understanding is that only the Torrent and Chevy Equinox (both Vue based models) have ESC for 2007, while the Vue itself doesn't have ESC. Next model year the Vue is going to be redesigned and be based on the GM Europe Opel Antara. Maybe the redesigned Vue will have ESC for 2008.
    Regards,
    Jean

    DD1 Age 16, 66" Driver's Ed
    DD2 Age 12, 64" 5 steps

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  15. #34
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I also had great service with our two Saturns at any of the local dealers. To be fair, our Honda dealership is also excellent. Can't say the same about the Subaru and Chrysler dealerships we've used...

    I think the Relay is a very reasonable minivan. It is relatively safe overall (see http://www.informedforlife.org/demos.../2007SCORE.pdf ), even if not quite up to the standards of the top minivans. If they like it, I suspect they should be able to negotiate a very good deal on one. As Splash said, you can often beat the "friends and family" employee discounts just by negotiating a little.

  16. #35
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanum View Post
    My understanding is that only the Torrent and Chevy Equinox (both Vue based models) have ESC for 2007, while the Vue itself doesn't have ESC. Next model year the Vue is going to be redesigned and be based on the GM Europe Opel Antara. Maybe the redesigned Vue will have ESC for 2008.
    The current VUE will not be getting anything added to it b/c in Sept is when the new VUE will be in production. I can see why they wouldn't spend the millions of dollars to add ESC to a model for only 1-2yrs when they already have plans on a whole redesign for it.

    I'll have dh look at the specs on the new VUE since he is the car guy and knows the in's and out's of GM.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
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  17. #36
    Senior Community Member steph's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way and who knows if there is facts to support this but IMHO American cars just don't last like the foreign competetors. At 30,000 miles my DH (then BF) 1998 Ford Mustang started having lots of problems and it was only 2 years old (the ride was bad and it started having problems. Where as my Toyota Corolla was still running great at 80,000 miles.

    If I was going to lease a car and found a American car met my standards (i.e. safety, function, appearance) I wouldn't hesitate BUT since we are buying our next car there is NO WAY I would consider a Ford or GM. In my experience (friends and family) they just don't last like the foreign competetors.

    I agree that we should support America and buy American but (whether it is right or wrong) when it comes to a major financial decision like buying a car, I have to take into consideration the fact of how long and how reliable the car will be.

    This is JMHO and I hope that I don't offend anyone and I am sure there are people who have had postive experiences with American cars - I just personally have not!!

    Also I know that some American cars have foreign engines (I think Saturn has a honda engine) so I could be persuaded to maybe look at those in the future.
    Steph
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  18. #37
    CPSDarren - Admin SafeDad's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    ESC is a relatively small incremental cost if the vehicle already has ABS and traction control. Why they wouldn't do it for 2007 may well be due to the redesign, why they didn't do it years ago is the question. For example, ESC became standard on the Highlander a few years ago and was optional for a few years prior to that.

    It's too bad the Torrent and Equinox haven't been tested by the IIHS for side impacts yet. I guess GM is content to wait for their next test of midsize SUVs. Kudos to Ford for reimbursing the IIHS for the cost of the Freestyle that allowed it to be tested on its own, rather than wait for the regular test cycle. For the cost of a vehicle, GM could have supplied a side curtain equipped Vue years ago for testing. On the flipside, Ford didn't bother to make ESC an option on the Freestyle and it's a relatively new model. Go figure.

    Getting quadruple 5-star ratings, getting "Good" results on both the front and side impact tests from the IIHS and making side curtain airbags and stability control at least optional (if not standard) is not difficult. The parameters of these tests have been well known for years and these features are inexpesive enough that many companies are now making them standard even in economy models. For some reason, GM just hasn't put any effort into doing so for its SUVs and minivans so far. That doesn't make them unsafe, but it also doesn't make them as safe as some competitive models.

  19. #38
    Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus Jeanum's Avatar
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Agreed, Darren. I find it ironic that GM went to the expense of adding a hybrid Vue model to their product lineup for 2007 but still didn't make ESC available on the Vue, even though its Vue-based Chevrolet Equinox and Pontiac Torrent counterparts do have ESC. I used to be one of Saturn's biggest boosters, but I'm irked at the departure from plastic body panels and the lack of competitive safety features. (off soapbox for the evening now, I promise )
    Regards,
    Jean

    DD1 Age 16, 66" Driver's Ed
    DD2 Age 12, 64" 5 steps

    Click here if you wish to view the full size version of my avatar

  20. #39
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    Quote Originally Posted by saa2006 View Post
    I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way and who knows if there is facts to support this but IMHO American cars just don't last like the foreign competetors. At 30,000 miles my DH (then BF) 1998 Ford Mustang started having lots of problems and it was only 2 years old (the ride was bad and it started having problems. Where as my Toyota Corolla was still running great at 80,000 miles.

    If I was going to lease a car and found a American car met my standards (i.e. safety, function, appearance) I wouldn't hesitate BUT since we are buying our next car there is NO WAY I would consider a Ford or GM. In my experience (friends and family) they just don't last like the foreign competetors.

    I agree that we should support America and buy American but (whether it is right or wrong) when it comes to a major financial decision like buying a car, I have to take into consideration the fact of how long and how reliable the car will be.

    This is JMHO and I hope that I don't offend anyone and I am sure there are people who have had postive experiences with American cars - I just personally have not!!

    Also I know that some American cars have foreign engines (I think Saturn has a honda engine) so I could be persuaded to maybe look at those in the future.
    Well I have a 5yr old Chevy Silverado crewcab truck with over 80,000 miles on it right not sitting in my garage going strong. Yes, It needs it maintances but what vehicles don't. I had a brand new '03 VW Passat that we bought in June '03 that was a hunk of junk. In the 18mths we owned it it was in the shop 21 times for 17 different things. That was the 1st and only time we have bought a foreign vehicle and that will be the last.

    Reliablilty is perception! Did you know VW has the worst build quality? I mean you don't see any automaker closing up service departments? They all have issues. My neighbor just this summer had her brand new 2 wk old Honda Accord bought back from Honda corp due to the Lemon Law. She now owns a Chevy Impala that hasn't had a single issue yet.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

  21. #40
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    Re: What GM van to buy?

    I dunno, my mom's van is a chevy and although I feel like it a death trap(read my previous threads lol!) it has lasted over 100,000 and 13years. My dad had a chevy that he drove to a little over 200,000(he is a salesman though and travels daily) until his van blew up(well almost) after having it about 8 years. He now has a bravada, which is like the blazer and has 150,000 miles and he got it jan 2001, so 6 years. He drives everything until it falls apart, and he is hard on them. So from our track records they have held up well, but the safety on them are few and far between(mainly because they are older models though, probably).

    If I was in the market for a new vehicle the first thing I would do is go to iihs.org, informedforlife.org, and the like and look at the crash test ratings. I would list the top 3 and their ratings for each type of vehicle I was interested in(truck, van, suv, car) then I would research those 3 in each catagory and see what looked to offer the best safety features, then I would go to the local dealerships and look at the offers they can make on their safety features. After narrowing it down to the vehicle that fits us and has great ratings I would pick. There is only one perfect vehicle for me IMO, and when it is time I will find it. I wont decide because of brand, I will decide on safety and features alone. IMO that is the most important thing.
    All that I listed above is what I do when someone asks for a recommendation. I follow those steps and tell them those things.
    The OP asked for a GM minivan, since I did not see the rating to be very good, I suggested one of GM's better rated vehicles(since they were only concerned with having 3 occupants and trying for a 3rd), I figure each brand has got to have at least 1 safe vehicle that rivals another brand in some area, kwim? So no matter the brand you should be able to find 1 good one, its whether or not you can fit in it that matters.
    Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes...
    That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away AND you have their shoes.

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