A series of questions about multiple kids in multiple seats... (long)

I have a 2002 GMC Safari in which I regularly transport a group of children. Until about a month ago, most of them rode in boosters (almost all low-back... *shudder*) and then I saw the 5pt vs harness booster video. Scary stuff. I've gotten new, harnessed carseats for almost everyone, but I do still have a few questions that I'm hoping someone here can help me with.

This is really long, so thank you in advance to anyone who reads, and especially to anyone who answers. Also, don't feel that you have to answer all parts -- I'll gladly take help with just one or two of the points if that's all you have. Lastly, please let me know if any of these should be (re)posted in a different forum. Again, thanks in advance.

1) This question is almost irrelevent for us, but I was asked this morning and wanted to make sure I gave out correct information. I have a babe who is in a Graco Snugride -- he's 25" and probably 18 or 19 lbs, so he's just about outgrown it. With me, he'll be (RF, of course) in a Scenera in about two weeks, but it may be that his parents want to push out changing him till he hits the limit. Just to check, aside from the 26" requirement, is he outgrown by height if within 1" from the top of the shell? Also, his mom asked if he was okay if his legs exteneded out the bottom of the seat... I told her yes, as I know that's true in convertables, but I wanted to make sure it was true in infant seats as well.

2) I'd like to recommend a seat that is both RFing and HWH for him to his parents -- 65lbs is fine, don't necessarily need 80. I thought the Nautilus RFd but I now know it doesn't, so not sure what fits that criteria. Budget would be a big plus -- they'd be more likely to follow my recommendation -- but isn't necessary. Is the MyRide65 going to be least expensive? There's a good chance that they still have a convertible seat from an older sibling, but the one they have also may be expired.

3) Switching kids... I need a booster for a tall, solid 7.5 yo child. He's 52" and 78 lbs. Safety is paramount but budget is also important. (I've spent about $500 on car seats already, lol.) I have available to me a Cosco/Dorel low back booster, which goes to 100lbs and 57", and a couple of high back boosters (Cosco Ventura and Cosco/Dorel high back booster) which go to 80lbs/52". Obviously, he's going to outgrow those in a matter of weeks -- his ears are still below the top of the Cosco high back but won't be for long. My preference would be to keep him in a HBB, but is he safe in a low-back? (I know in my gut he'd be safer in a HBB and would really be need to talked into putting him a low back, but it should be obvious from the rest of my post that I'm not the most knowledgable.)

I was thinking of the TurboBooster, or the AirRide. (They have AirRides at our Big Lots for $55.) Is the TurboBooster comparable in fit to the Nautilus? I put him in another child's Nauti and feel that it fits him reasonably well, so would be inclined to go with the Turbo if the fit is similar. Is there another 'budget' booster seat that would work well? How about a Vivo? What's the difference between the Vivo and the Vivo Light?

Sorry, that was a lot of questions... I've managed to make decisions on the other seats pretty easily but am not sure what to do for this young man.

4) There will be occasions this summer where I will have to put a child in the front seat. My options are the above 52"/78lb booster boy, or a 55lb 57" 5yo in an Apex 65. I had ASSumed that it would be better to put the older, larger child in the front seat, as he's at least approaching the size of the 12yr old recommendation, but my understanding now is that it's actually better to put the oldest harnessed child up front, is that correct? Ergo, the 5yo? Unfortunately my front does have airbags which I cannot turn off, if that makes a difference. (To be clear, I don't *like* the option of a child in a front seat, and try to avoid it if possible, but when it has to happen, I want to do what's safest.)

4b) Is it the oldest harnessed child, or the largest harnessed child? I have a 35lb, 43" 5yo who is actually 3mos older than the 55lb, 47"... he's not an option due to parental consent, so I'm asking for theoretical reasons.

5) I'm flat out an idiot about tethering. I've never done it. In fact, I didn't think I had tethers, so I've never paid attention... but as I recently figured out, I don't have LATCH, but I do have two rear tethers in the 3rd row. I think. They're heavy black metal triangles, and I guess they could be for my cargo net (that I also didn't know I had, ha!) but I think they're tethers. Is there a step-by-step tether FAQ somewhere? And would someone be willing to help me which seats it would be most beneficial/important to tether, if I list them all out?

6) Final question. My seat belts have ELRs, and I was under the impression that it meant they did not lock. After years of fighting with locking clips, I have come to find out that in fact, I have locking latchplates. (Not sure if they're regular or lightweight.) So I've removed the locking clips from both of the middle belts, as well as one other seat. The belts hold great, with solid installs. My question is, is it unsafe to leave the locking clips on the other seats? They're outboard lap-shoulder belt seats. It's more a matter of convenience, not reinstalling every seat in the van, but if it's unsafe to leave them with locking clips on, I can take them off.

Again, for the fifty-sixth time... thank you for anyone who takes the time to read or to help.

Carrie

Hi Carrie,

I'll take a stab at 1 & 2.

1) Yup, legs extending off end of seat is okay. The 26" height limit is irrelevant as long as there is 1" or more of shell above baby's head and baby weighs less than 20 pounds (I'm assuming it's an older 26" and 20 pound limit Snugride).

2) Taking budget and need for HWH into account with a convertible, I'd look at the Evenflo Triumph Advance (rear-faces to 35 pounds, foward-faces to 50, can find for $120 or so online), Graco My Ride 65 (RF to 40 pounds, FF to 65, about $150-$160), the First Years True Fit (RF to 35 pounds, FF to 65, has tallest shell on market for convertibles, about $150-$180 online). I think the new Dorel 3 in 1 seats RF to 35 and FF to 50 (they make stinky boosters), and I'm not sure of the price. There are other less expensive convertibles, but I think these are the ones that are budget-conscious and HWH.

Ok, I'll take a stab at a few of them as well

3. He would be alright in a low back booster. HBB offer more side impact protection and might want to be considered if he falls asleep in the car.

4. I was always taught to put the oldest harnessed child in the front seat if that seating postion was the only option.

5. You will need to read your owners manual to your car to find out if you attaching to tethers or cargo hooks. Cargo hooks are not weight bearing or approved tethering locations (unless stated in your cars owners manual) so you will need to double check before you use them. If the owners manual isn't available, I would call the car manufacturer or look to see if a copy is available online.

6. If you have locking latch plates, then locking clips are not necessary, but I was told that using a locking clip just to make sure they stayed tight was ok. If you wanted to double check that, call the car manufacturer and see what they say

With regards to the Turbo booster for the 78lb 7.5 year old, I think you'll likely find it too small. It is a booster than fits smaller kids (5 + 6 year olds) well. My 60lb, 7.5 year old DD just outgrew it by height. She didn't look particularly comfortable in it anymore either. Its a fine booster, just probably not a good option for this particular child.

Can't comment on the Vivo, but when you say AirRide, do you mean Graco Airbooster? That IS one of the boosters that is recomended for older/longer legged children, so it may be an option. I can't speak to how it compares to the Vivo though, cause I just don't know.

I'll be back later with info on your tether anchors, if someone else hasn't gotten it first. (I'm posting from my phone right now).

1) This question is almost irrelevent for us, but I was asked this morning and wanted to make sure I gave out correct information. I have a babe who is in a Graco Snugride -- he's 25" and probably 18 or 19 lbs, so he's just about outgrown it. With me, he'll be (RF, of course) in a Scenera in about two weeks, but it may be that his parents want to push out changing him till he hits the limit. Just to check, aside from the 26" requirement, is he outgrown by height if within 1" from the top of the shell? Also, his mom asked if he was okay if his legs exteneded out the bottom of the seat... I told her yes, as I know that's true in convertables, but I wanted to make sure it was true in infant seats as well.
The seat is outgrown by height when there is less than 1 inch of seat shell above the head. And yes, it's ok for the feet to hang off the bottom.

4) There will be occasions this summer where I will have to put a child in the front seat. My options are the above 52"/78lb booster boy, or a 55lb 57" 5yo in an Apex 65. I had ASSumed that it would be better to put the older, larger child in the front seat, as he's at least approaching the size of the 12yr old recommendation, but my understanding now is that it's actually better to put the oldest harnessed child up front, is that correct? Ergo, the 5yo? Unfortunately my front does have airbags which I cannot turn off, if that makes a difference. (To be clear, I don't *like* the option of a child in a front seat, and try to avoid it if possible, but when it has to happen, I want to do what's safest.)
The harness child should ride in the front because the harness will keep him from moving around. A booster child could move around and position himself closer to the airbag.

4b) Is it the oldest harnessed child, or the largest harnessed child? I have a 35lb, 43" 5yo who is actually 3mos older than the 55lb, 47"... he's not an option due to parental consent, so I'm asking for theoretical reasons.
The oldest. But like you've noted, not without parental consent.

5) I'm flat out an idiot about tethering. I've never done it. In fact, I didn't think I had tethers, so I've never paid attention... but as I recently figured out, I don't have LATCH, but I do have two rear tethers in the 3rd row. I think. They're heavy black metal triangles, and I guess they could be for my cargo net (that I also didn't know I had, ha!) but I think they're tethers. Is there a step-by-step tether FAQ somewhere? And would someone be willing to help me which seats it would be most beneficial/important to tether, if I list them all out?
Your vehicle should have a tether anchor for each of the outboard 2nd row seats, and 1 tether anchor on the 3rd row passenger side.

6) Final question. My seat belts have ELRs, and I was under the impression that it meant they did not lock. After years of fighting with locking clips, I have come to find out that in fact, I have locking latchplates. (Not sure if they're regular or lightweight.) So I've removed the locking clips from both of the middle belts, as well as one other seat. The belts hold great, with solid installs. My question is, is it unsafe to leave the locking clips on the other seats? They're outboard lap-shoulder belt seats. It's more a matter of convenience, not reinstalling every seat in the van, but if it's unsafe to leave them with locking clips on, I can take them off.
After a certain year (1996?) it became mandatory for all seatbelt to lock in some way. If you do not have locking latchplates on all your seatbelt, you should be able to lock it at the retractor. Slowly pull the seatbelt all the way out, as you let it go back in you should hear a ratcheting sound.

If you can get a good/better install with the locking clip, it's ok to continue using it.

My 7.5y, 73# and 8.5y, 83# don't fit the turbos anymore. We gave their turbos to their cousins and got them backless boosters. The graco air seemed slightly taller, but not to last them very long. We don't really have any others to try locally, so we went backless.

I'd check your vehicle manual or go to a dealership about the tether anchors. I'm not sure that what you describe are actually tether anchors -- they sound more like cargo tie-downs, which can NOT be substituted for tether anchors unless your vehicle manual specifically allows that.

3. If you can get a good price on the Air, get it. It's the same height as the Turbo, but it fits bigger kids better and it makes a great backless, so even if he doesn't use the back for long, it's a good option.

5. I have a '97 Astro, which is the same as a Safari. They've done some wonky things with the tether anchors in these vehicles. It's entirely possible that your "triangle things" are both cargo hooks AND tether anchors, but you'll need to check your owner's manual to know for sure (or hopefully someone with a LATCH manual handy can look it up for you.)

6. If you've got the same latchplates I have, I'd recommend you remove the locking clips. My '97 has heavy-duty locking latchplates and if yours are the same, the locking clips are completely unnecessary. Locking latchplates must lay flat (parallel to the seat belt) and considering the shape & heft of the latchplates in my car, I'd be concerned that the locking clips would interfere with that.

Defrost said:

5. I have a '97 Astro, which is the same as a Safari. They've done some wonky things with the tether anchors in these vehicles. It's entirely possible that your "triangle things" are both cargo hooks AND tether anchors, but you'll need to check your owner's manual to know for sure (or hopefully someone with a LATCH manual handy can look it up for you.)

Click to expand...

According to the LATCH manual, the earliest model year that the Safari had tether anchors is 2001.

BookMama said:

According to the LATCH manual, the earliest model year that the Safari had tether anchors is 2001.

Click to expand...

Right - sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the issue. You can retrofit earlier models, though, and some of the retrofits utilize the existing cargo hooks. IIRC, it's very specific to the year, though. I only mentioned it because some of the responses were saying "no, cargo hook bad!" and this is one of the vehicles where that is sometimes the exception to that rule.

Defrost said:

Right - sorry, I didn't mean to confuse the issue. You can retrofit earlier models, though, and some of the retrofits utilize the existing cargo hooks. IIRC, it's very specific to the year, though. I only mentioned it because some of the responses were saying "no, cargo hook bad!" and this is one of the vehicles where that is sometimes the exception to that rule.

Click to expand...

OK, got it - thanks for the clarification. I couldn't find anything in the LATCH manual specifically about retrofits for this vehicle, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

Tether info 02 Safari

2nd row- LATCH and Tethers outboard, none center
3rd row- Tether passenger side outboard, none driver side outboard or center

Ford also allows the use of a seat belt from the third row as a tether if the vehicle manual says it is an option.

safeinthecar said:

Tether info 02 Safari

2nd row- LATCH and Tethers outboard, none center
3rd row- Tether passenger side outboard, none driver side outboard or center

Ford also allows the use of a seat belt from the third row as a tether if the vehicle manual says it is an option.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the TA info. :thumbsup:

But a Safari's not a Ford, it's a Chevy.

BookMama, the retrofit info I've seen was from the manufacturer. It's been posted here on the boards once or twice.

First of all: THANK YOU for all of the help!

Re: 1 & 2... Yes, it's an older version Snugride, DOM late 2003 (December I think.) Good thing this is the last baby for it, ha ha. Good to know I was correct on the foot info, I just wanted to double-check.

Bree, that list of HWH convertibles is great. I'll share it with mom when I talk to her next week. I'm hoping to talk her into the MR65 with the higher RF weight, but not sure if it will happen. I just know the way he's growing, he'll be to 35lbs in no time flat, so an extra five pounds would be awesome.

3) Angie -- I'll take a look at how he fits in the LBBs I have. He's a good, sit-still rider, and I think the belts hit him in the right places, but I also know that the SIP from a HBB would be invaluable. He's not really a sleeper, but every so often he DOES zonk out and now that I think about it, he'll probably be next to a RFing Scenera, so not even sure where he'd slump too.

April & Stefanie -- I do mean the Graco Airbooster *blush.* Maybe I'll take him in to try it out. Thanks for the info on the Turbo.

I'm still trying to decide between the Airbooster and the Vivo... seems I can get them for a comparable price, and the Vivo is a bit taller, is there a negative to the Vivo that I don't know about? (DOM isn't really a concern for me, since it's unlikely I'll still need it in a few years.)

4) Angie & NannyMom -- thanks for the reconfirmation on harnessing. That's so strange about oldest vs. largest... I'd curious about the rationale behind that. Anyways, like I said it's a moot point, but at least I have the knowledge in case I need it in the future.

5) Andrea -- I have a 2002 so I'm good to go on the tethers. Thanks for looking it up in the manual. I finally found my vehicle manual online, and the tethers were exactly where NannyMom said they'd be. I'm going to put this in bold by itself in case anyone else has the same question and pulls this thread up in google...

Those "triangle-things" ARE NOT TETHER ANCHORS.

Melissa was correct in saying that they are cargo tie-downs. The tethers are small tabs with cutout squares on the base of the bench seat, where the "feet" come out. I was looking for something mounted on the floor, ceiling, or wall, which is how I missed them. Yeah... like I said, tether idiot.

I did manage to successfully tether one of the seats last night, so it's nice and tight and the top doesn't pitch forward, yay.

Kimberly, pretty sure I don't have lower anchors, but I'll go check again, lol. The Safari is a GMC, essentially a Chevy. All of the rear sears are occupied, though, so even if the 3rd row belt was a mfg option, it wouldn't work in my case. Thank you for looking it up...

Debbie, would the retrofit be to add tethers to the remaining seats?

6) NannyMom, except for the front passenger seat, my belts do not lock at the retractors. That's how I'd always installed carseats before this van, and so when I got my van, and they did not lock there, I thought I had to use locking clips. Just recently I started reading here and doing my own research and realized I had locking latchplates -- never knew there was such a thing -- and therefore I did not need the locking clips. Debbie -- I believe my latchplates do lay flat, but I'll run out there and check... maybe try the install with and without the clips and see. Based on the seats I've already taken the clips off of, I figure they'll be fine without... was just trying to save myself a re-install between now and when I move seats into their summer setup. Guess I should stop being lazy, lol.

As an endnote... it's really scary to me that I've had so many "incorrect" things going on my carseat installs... yet my installs have always been so much better than 95% of the other cars that I see put children into. Yet, when I help to fix an obvious problem (ie... tighten ridiculously loose straps as I buckle a child in,) parents act annoyed... what's up with that?

Thank you again to everyone for their help. It's appreciated more than you can know.

Defrost said:

But a Safari's not a Ford, it's a Chevy.

Click to expand...

:doh: I know that of course. I looked it up in the right section of the LATCH manual, I promise!


I had just posted about Ford LATCH limits as well though, so my fingers were on a roll I guess.

It looks like most of your questions got answers - but to answer your question on the Vivo versus the Graco TB. Im y experience they are pretty similiar in seat size. The Vivo is not a wide booster by any means - my DS is 54" and 54lbs, he's not wide or very big overall and he's very comfortable in the Vivo, but I think if he were any bigger he'd be pretty squished in it! I think the Airbooster might be your better bet.

Good Luck!

Thanks, Sarah. I was still waffling between those two. I'll take the little dude to BigLots to try out the AirBooster in person this week and see how he fits in it. After I get one for him and another Apex, I'm done buying seats, yay!

Also, RE: TB, AirBooster & Vivo, I have pics comparing the TB & AB. The TB has a much shorter seat depth (so not as good for taller kids with longer legs.) The Vivo is about the same seat depth and fits quite similarly to the TB, if I recall correctly. here are pics of the TB & AB to help.


Seat depth of Air Booster





Seat depth of TurboBooster