How do I respond?

nevaehsmommy

New member
Basicly I sent a lady an e-mail saying her car seat was expired and probally would not be safe to sell and would she really want to endanger a child....really ***** foooting around the issue.

anyway she sent me this link...I am almost hesitant to post it for fear someone will read it and believe it as well.....but here it is.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/11/b...bc0a85724&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

FWIW I would love to be in that store. So many car seats. Our store carries like 3 convertiables 3 buckets and the rest are boosters.
 
ADS

christineka

New member
I'd send the link to the you tube video of the expired britax.

So, if plastic doesn't degrade- it is just safety standards that change, does that mean britax seats were made with weaker plastic 10 years ago?
 

Splash

New member
You don't respond to it. Many people (including myself, and few can argue that I am not passionate or that I don't know my stuff) don't buy into the "expiration" of a car seat. I'm not gonna use a 20 year old seat, but I don't believe they magically implode after 6 years, either. Especially one that I buy NIB a year after DOM, use for 8 months before putting it away for another kid, and then use for another year before boxing it up again. You can't tell me that that seat had the same stresses as one in use in death valley for 5 years.

As far as losing history and parts- I've got it all and know it all (about the life of my particular seats). Accident- nope, never in one. New standards? Well, the RA I buy on the shelf today is virtually identical to the one for sale 10 years ago (save for the usage of LATCH, which does me no good if I don't use it, and a few base changes for ease of use not affecting safety).

I'm not advocating using a seat forever. But if you can't hardcore advocates on board, chances are you're not gonna convince the average joe who wants to sell a seat. Especially if you start out saying it's not safe and she's endangering a child. I'd write you off as well. Add a news article from a reputable source, quoting big wigs from the companies, well... the battle is lost before it is started. Don't even bother trying.
 

stayinhomewithmy6

Senior Community Member
Well, for one thing, that article is from 2005. I would start out by telling her that safety information is constantly evolving and changing and that the article she sent you was out of date. Tell her that we NOW know that plastic does start to disintegrate after 6 yrs.
 

nevaehsmommy

New member
How old is the carseat she is trying to sell?


I dont know. It had to be old for me to send her an e-mail though. I scavenage through CL every couple days and e-mail the ladies with over the top older seats. Like older fiher price, century and seats that are missing parts. I have been known to "misdianose" model year so I usally on say something to seats that me or my siblings used..or in that era (we are 25years down to 8 years)

She was very polite. And I know that I probally wont change her mind about this issue but for my own peice of mind I feel like I have to at least Rebutt her view. and I am not an expert on anything.

I dont have acsess to youtube.com this is a school loaned computer and apparently youtube.com is not educational. *sarcasm*


Splash- I doubt that seats expire at 6 years 1 day 1 minute. I also agree that you probally have leeway with a seat that was used repectfully and sparingly. Would I use one of YOUR seats that was 7 or 8 years old....I might. I think the reason her e-mail is getting to me is bc the issues you brought up seem so reasonable and make sense, but we just dont know when the magic date is going to be....but also when you look at seats that show up to checks you know some seat will date us all.
 

MustangMama

Active member
Quote frome the article:

"Despite rumors that float around the playground and the Web, extreme weather has no impact on the life of a car seat, Mr. Galambos said."

I find this hard to believe.
 

nevaehsmommy

New member
Quote frome the article:

"Despite rumors that float around the playground and the Web, extreme weather has no impact on the life of a car seat, Mr. Galambos said."

I find this hard to believe.

I find that hard to believe as well. I know that car seats are protected in cars from the elements but I have toys inside of play houses and on a covered porch that still crack and get color spots showing strain from the extreme heat/cooling in the midwest.

And a lot of the time around here I see car seats left on the stoop of a house with no awning or anything. So full sun, full rain, sleet, cold whatever...
 

Defrost

Moderator - CPSTI Emeritus
My issue with selling an expired carseat is this - sure, YOU (the seller) believe that it's going to be safe, because it's only one month past the expiration date, and it's not going to spontaneously explode, and you've kept all the parts, you know it's never been wrecked, etc. YOU would feel okay using it for another couple of years as a back-up seat for YOUR child.

The problem with it is the people who will BUY an expired carseat. The people who will buy an expired seat aren't going to toss it when it's ten years old and has a crack in the base and the safety stickers have peeled off and the straps are glued into twisty ropes - they're going to keep using it for that third kid, because it "worked great" for their first child. There is really no reason to buy a used carseat - take that money and put it towards a brand-new one.

There are many economical choices, any of which will be safer than even the most expensive expired carseat.
 

amyd

New member
Just another thought...in a "proper use" state/province wouldn't it technically be illegal to use an expired seat because by using it, you're going against the manufacturer's instructions?
 

morninglori

New member
My take on the expiration date is based on my engineering background and my experience with safety factors. Whenever I design something I always include a minimum safety factor to account for any uncertainties in material properties, manufacturing process, daily wear, etc. - which is what I believe is happening with the expiration dates for car seats. A good engineer ALWAYS has a reasonable safety factor included in design...you don't design on the edge, especially with safety products.

The youtube video showing failure of the 10yo seat is an example of "ultimate stress" or "failure strength". It is a data point of the failure strength of that particular material at that age. Lets just say for example that the force that caused that seat to fail was F=100lbs. If the material was well characterized and understood, and the engineer designed the car seat with a safety factor of 3 (this is the common safety factor most engineers use), the engineer would have calculated that at 6 years the seat would take F=300lbs or more before it failed. And that is how they either decided on the 6years or decided on the type of plastic, the thickness of the material or details of any reinforcing in the car seat. This is why the reps in the article were saying that the seats were good for another couple years...their minimum safety factor (3?) was still met at time = 8 years according to their calculations.

Yes car seats don't instantaneously stop working at the expiration date, but that safety factor decreases as time goes on. And the failure strength has a pretty big range for some materials. The seat used in the video could have been one that was "worst case" for how it was stored, or used during it's life, or it could have been nominal. I don't know, but to me it does show that there is a safety factor used because a 10yo seat will behave differently than a new seat.

Hope this makes sense....

Lori
 

nevaehsmommy

New member
So then it goes back to what defrost was saying...it is alright to perhaps use an expired seat with your own kids but dont try to sell it and perhaps but a child at risk.
 

southpawboston

New member
My take on the expiration date is based on my engineering background and my experience with safety factors. Whenever I design something I always include a minimum safety factor to account for any uncertainties in material properties, manufacturing process, daily wear, etc. - which is what I believe is happening with the expiration dates for car seats. A good engineer ALWAYS has a reasonable safety factor included in design...you don't design on the edge, especially with safety products.

The youtube video showing failure of the 10yo seat is an example of "ultimate stress" or "failure strength". It is a data point of the failure strength of that particular material at that age. Lets just say for example that the force that caused that seat to fail was F=100lbs. If the material was well characterized and understood, and the engineer designed the car seat with a safety factor of 3 (this is the common safety factor most engineers use), the engineer would have calculated that at 6 years the seat would take F=300lbs or more before it failed. And that is how they either decided on the 6years or decided on the type of plastic, the thickness of the material or details of any reinforcing in the car seat. This is why the reps in the article were saying that the seats were good for another couple years...their minimum safety factor (3?) was still met at time = 8 years according to their calculations.

Yes car seats don't instantaneously stop working at the expiration date, but that safety factor decreases as time goes on. And the failure strength has a pretty big range for some materials. The seat used in the video could have been one that was "worst case" for how it was stored, or used during it's life, or it could have been nominal. I don't know, but to me it does show that there is a safety factor used because a 10yo seat will behave differently than a new seat.

Hope this makes sense....

Lori

that was probably one of the best-reasoned, most logical explanations i've seen floating around this forum. thank you! :thumbsup: (then again, i'm biased towards the opinions of engineers :D)

nice to hear the blurb on tires and helmets in that article as well. i actually think tire expiration dates are a GOOD thing. have you ever looked closely at the side wall of an old tire??? it's full of fine cracks from "dry rot". the rubber compounds harden and crack, decreasing the "safety factor" that lori describes being engineered into products. i wonder how this applies to seatbelts? i know for a fact that the seatbelts in many old (>30 yo) cars can become brittle.
 

skylinphoto

New member
I like the expiration date on tires too. I mean, your tires are the only thing truly between you and the pavement. That's a mighty important part of your car. Not something you want to risk failing. :)
Same with carseats. A might important piece of safety equiptment. Not worth chancing IMO.
 

TechnoGranola

Forum Ambassador
nice to hear the blurb on tires and helmets in that article as well. i actually think tire expiration dates are a GOOD thing. have you ever looked closely at the side wall of an old tire??? it's full of fine cracks from "dry rot". the rubber compounds harden and crack, decreasing the "safety factor" that lori describes being engineered into products.
There was a good story on 20/20 last year http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=4822250&page=1
 

thepeach80

Senior Community Member
I can't justify using an expired seat or selling one to anyone else. Anyone who knows me well knows I'm not sue happy and sad that our society has come to that. Heaven forbid I ever need to sue anyone, but I do want that right protected and that means following the expiration dates. I have no one but myself to blame if my seat does fail after it's 'expired'.
 

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