Question Big 2.5 year old - United Arab Emirates

Hello,

I am pleased to have found this forum with so many people who know so much about car seats!

My problem seems to be a fairly common one. My DD2 is big for her age, she weighs 17 kg and will soon be too heavy for her stage 1 car seat (Maxi Cosi Priorifix) which has a weight limit of 18kg. I also have DD1 who is 12 months and 11kg and still in her infant carrier (Maxi Cosi Cabriofix) - but is pretty much at the limits of this seat by height (top of her head is 1 inch from top of shell). So I need to move them pretty soon.

We live in the UAE and the choice of car seats is pretty bad TBH. I have the girls in the safest ones available here. But, for DD1, when she gets to 18 kg all that is available here are unharnessed boosters (there are boosters with harnesses, but the harnesses only last to 18 kg).

Road safety is a major problem here, the statistics are dire. Most children are held in parents' laps or left roaming unbelted around the car. Kids poking out sunroofs is a common sight. People have big, powerful SUVs, have heavily tinted car windows and drive FAST! (By the way, I am trying to do something about this - I am involved in a local road safety campaign).

I am very concerned to keep my kids safe and am prepared to buy something overseas and have it sent to me here. My DH travels to the UK for work from time to time and my parents in NZ could also bring me a car seat if there is something good available there.

I know rear facing seats are safest, but am a bit dubious about changing DD1 to rear face now after forward facing for so long. Also, because I wouldn't be able to try the car seat in my car before buying it. I am interested in buying a forward child seat with a higher harness limit (e.g. Britax Boulevard or Regent) and having it sent to me here.

My questions are:

1. My car is European (Porsche Cayenne - lucky me!) and does not have an anchor for the tether strap and I haven't found anywhere that can install an anchor. Can you use these car seats without the tether strap?

2. I read somewhere (on the NZ Brio Zento website) that studies have shown that forward facing with a harness is not safe beyond 18 kg and that when forward facing it is safer to use a booster with seatbelt after 18 kg. Is this true? Is it unsafe to use a car seats with a harness after 18 kg even if the harness is specified to go to say 80 lbs?

3. My car has Isofix points. Can you use LATCH car seats with Isofix points?

4. Does anyone have a Porsche Cayenne with a Britax Boulevard or Regent or one of the higher weight limit rear-facing seats (Brio Zento, Britax 2 Way Elite or Multitech)?

Any other ideas will be gratefully received.

Thank you for your help!

1. American seats are tested and pass below 50 pounds without the top tether. Performance is improved with the top tether, but if you don't have one available, you do what you have to do. The Radian does not require top tether at any weight and tests very well without it.

2. FFing with a harness is safe. Astronauts and race car drivers wear 4, 5, or 6 point harnesses because they are safer than a 3 point belt. If your child is ready for a booster by 18 kgs, there's no reason not to move to a booster, but a harness is also a safe choice.

3. You can use a LATCH seat with ISOFIX points. Be aware, though, that Porsche has a weight limit of 39 pounds on its LATCH system when all three points are used together (lower anchors and top tether). Using more points spreads the forces out. Since you don't have top tethers, I strongly recommend using the seatbelt.

4. Sorry, no Porsche in my house

pixels99 said:

4. Sorry, no Porsche in my house

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lol we dont have one either but I want one

All seats in NZ only harness to 18kgs, other than the Brio, which rear faces to 25kg, but only forward faces to 18kg. I had one and have never had any trouble installing it in any car.

We now have a multi tech and it is awesome ds is 2 years 2 months old and loves it, I put my day care kids in it (3 & 4 years) they fight over who gets to sit in the backwards seat

At 2.5 I wouldn't feel comfortable putting a child into a booster so I would look at getting a higher weight American seat, (you can probably get top tethers installed) or a higher weight swedish seat.

I would get a rear facing seat for your younger dd as well.

Hiya! I understand your problem, my son got to 18kg before he was 2! And at the time, we had nothing in NZ that harnessed past 18kg, so I too had to import.

I have a Britax Frontier and a Britax Boulevard. Personally, if you're going to be forward facing, I'd go for the Frontier over the Boulevard. (Can only RF in the Boulevard to 16kg anyway). Using the long belt path I found it installs absolutely rock solid in every vehicle I put it in. (Haven't tried it in a Cayenne though, sorry), and it can be used without a top tether up to 29.5kg. I just love this seat!

If you're considering going back to Rear Facing (I switched my son back to RF at about 2.5yrs - he thought it was great and is still RF!), then a swedish seat is the only way to go as the US seats max out RF at 16kg. Most tether to the seat in front, so no dedicated anchor point is required. DS is in a Britax Multi-Tech, which I think is a great seat, but I haven't seen any of the other swedish seats 'in person' to make a comparison.

There's a site called www.carseat.org which people can rate vehicle compatibility - might be worth seeing if any posters there mention the cayenne.

Regarding harnessing past 18kg, there is mixed research on the topic, and people here could give you very convincing arguments both ways. The 'booster is safer' theory is that the harness holds the body too tightly, thus increasing the force on the neck when the head is thrown forward in an accident. The gentler hold of a seatbelt would soften the impact on the neck as the body would move foward a bit as well, absorbing some of the energy as the seatbelt grabs. Why would this neck risk possibly be greater to a child over 18kg? I would think the risk would be greater with a younger child who's head is proportionately heavier to it's body and who has softer neck cartillage. I believe this 18kg theory is because they tend to think kids will get to 4 years before 18kg, and some people believe the kids are then safer in a booster as it holds the body less tightly, but the child theoretically will still sit properly in it and therefore be well restrained. However, the likelihood of a 2.5yr old child sitting correctly in a booster is pretty low. Personally, at this stage my thinking prefers a harness for a child under 5.

For a 4-5 year old, as to in which they'd be safer, well, I think it depends on the type of crash actually. For example, if the vehicle rolled, I'd want my kid in a harness. Maybe for a direct head on, a booster MIGHT be safer. Or might not. Unfortunately there's not really a definite right or wrong answer.

Good luck!

One thing to beware of on the Frontier is that not all seatbelts are long enough for the long belt path.

Thank you all for your advice. :thumbsup: I really appreciate the help. I am feeling very overwhelmed with all the information and different approaches in various countries! Coming from NZ, but then living in UK and now in UAE I am getting very confused.

Having read a bit more now, I am wondering whether I should go for 2 Swedish rear-facing seats. They are legal in UK and NZ (and here in UAE where there are no laws about child restraints!). I am thinking Multi-Tech may be best because it seems like this is best for big children? However, it may be cheaper for me to get my mum to bring me Brio Zentos when she visits as this seat is avail. in NZ - although it seems that this seat does not last as long? Mine are both big for their ages, will measure them in more detail and get heights etc.

I have at last found on sale here a forward facing seat with higher harness weight - Safety First Apex 65. To be honest, it seems a bit flimsy in comparison to my DDs current seats which are very solid and it doesn't look like it has good side impact protection. And I still have the issue of no top tether anchors (my dealer told me it was fine to use the luggage clips!!!). And it may not be legal to use in NZ - I think US seats need special certification in NZ.

OK, sorry for rambling.

More questions...Do the Multi-Tech and Brio Zento take up a lot more room front to back in the car than a FF seat? My DH is tall and needs his seat back pretty far.

Is it more difficult to get your children in and out of a RF seat than a FF seat when they are older? I have difficulty getting my DD1 in and out of her FF seat as it is - she is heavy and the seat is high and I am small and weak

Thanks again

I can't comment on Multi-Tech/Zento because I'm not familiar with them.

One thing to be aware of with the Apex is that it must have support from the vehicle (seat back or head rest) to the top of the child's ears. It is not strong enough to provide adequate whiplash protection without support from the vehicle.

A seat with a low profile and no base will be easier to get your child in and out of. The Radian is a good example of this. It does not sit up high on a base (like a Britax seat does) and the sides are very low as well, so you don't have to lift the child as high up. As the child gets older, usually they can climb into the seat by themselves.

desertkiwi said:

They are legal in UK and NZ (and here in UAE where there are no laws about child restraints!). I am thinking Multi-Tech may be best because it seems like this is best for big children? However, it may be cheaper for me to get my mum to bring me Brio Zentos when she visits as this seat is avail. in NZ - although it seems that this seat does not last as long? Mine are both big for their ages, will measure them in more detail and get heights etc.

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The Zento may be a little cheaper, but probably not much because if you wanted a Multi-tech, you'd get it from Sweden and VAT gets deducted for a seat being shipped overseas. On these boards there's a guy called Adventuredad. He has assisted many of us with this process and is extremely helpful. If you PM him, he would be able to give you a price. You are right, the Brio will not last big kids as long as the Multi-Tech. If Finn is hanging around the boards, she will be able to comment further on this, as she had a Brio and now has a Multi-Tech. However, the Brio can be used from newborn, and the MT is for 9 months plus.

desertkiwi said:

I think US seats need special certification in NZ.

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Correct. US seats also need the NZ "S" mark to be legal here, which means you cannot import a seat privately. The Frontier and Boulevard for example are not available in NZ. I believe the reason is that Britax has an Australian arm, Safe n Sound, and we only get Australian Britax seats commercially here. The US seats would not achieve Australian Certification, as it has maximum RF and FF limits as part of the standard, which the US seats exceed. Personally, I made a decision to import a Frontier anyway. Naughty me.

desertkiwi said:

More questions...Do the Multi-Tech and Brio Zento take up a lot more room front to back in the car than a FF seat? My DH is tall and needs his seat back pretty far.

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A little more than a FF seat. However, no more than a normal convertible seat in a RF position. DH and I are very tall, and have our seats all the way back in our Toyota Camry and still manage to have a Britax Multi-Tech and a Britax Boulevard RF in the rear seat.

desertkiwi said:

Is it more difficult to get your children in and out of a RF seat than a FF seat when they are older? I have difficulty getting my DD1 in and out of her FF seat as it is - she is heavy and the seat is high and I am small and weak

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This depends on the seat, and how easy it is for the kid to climb in. For example, kids can very easily climb into the Multi-Tech, as it sits low on the seat, and has a low sided seat. The same features make it easier than many other RF seats to lift a smaller child into. When I first got the seat, and was lifting my DS in, I found it harder than an FF seat. (I'm tall and weak)Then I learnt to just "post" his legs in the car, dropping his butt on the seat, and THEN wiggling him into position, rather than trying to get him in and positioned all in one go. That made it just as easy, if not easier than his FF seat. Hope that makes sense!

There is heaps more growing room in a Multi Tech than a Brio, the Brio's are good seats, they dont have the foot prop and I found them hard to get an adequate recline for younger kids but my ds only started using it when he was 15 months old so he was ok. The Brio takes up a little bit less room than the Multi Tech and it isn't as wide its also not as well padded.

My ds is 2.2 years and he has just moved onto the 3rd set of slots in the Multi Tech, I do either get him to climb in or if thats taking to long i put him in head first drop his bum onto the seat and then position him. I also like that the Multi Tech turns into a booster & it seems it will make a much better booster than the Brio.

here he is in the Multi Tech, 3rd slot of 6 (2.2years, 92cm, 13kg)


here he is in the Brio, top slots of 4 (22months, 88cm, 12kg)


here he is in the Maxi Cosi Priori, top slot of 5 (2.1 years, 92cm, 13kg)

Re: Big 2.5 year old - United Arab Emirates - Muti-Tech/Two-Way/Frontier

Thanks for all the info again. :thumbsup:

Well I have now measured my girls.

DD1 (2.5 years) is 16.4 kg (36 lbs), 94 cm tall (37") and 57 cm (22.5") seated height (measured from floor to top head).

DD2 (1 year) is 11 kg (24 lbs), 77 cm tall (30") and 51 cm (20") seated height.

Who knows how I got such big kids, I am only 156 cm myself!

I am leaning towards getting Britax Two-Ways I think. More flexible because I can FF DD1 with harness up to 25 kg if she kicks off too much about being RF (she is very feisty) or if I have problems installing them RF in my car. I would get 1 to start with to try it.

Next questions:

1. Would DD1 fit in a Two-Way or Multi-Tech for long do you think given that she is already 57 cm seated height? If I wouldn't get 2 years use out of it, then I think I would be better to get a her a Frontier.

2. Are you able to tell me how big the Two-Way and Multi-Tech are front to back so I can measure if I have enough room for rear-facing them with the seat back for DH?

3. If Two-Way or Multi-Tech are installed FF, do they need top tethers? Think not, but best to check.

4. With the Frontier, just to confirm, you don't need to top tether up to 29.5 kg? That is great. My seatbelts are long so reckon I would manage the long belt path.

I am really interested in the Swedish extended RF stuff. One of my best friends is married to a Swede (although they live in UK), they visit Sweden regularly, but they have turned their DS FF at 9 months.

How do you get training in NZ to be a car seat technician? Is it through Safe to Go? I am wondering if I could do some training when I am next back in NZ so I could start doing some voluntary work to getting the UAE more child restraint aware.

Your dd is only 2cm taller than my son, I'm pretty sure he'll easily get 2 more years out of the Multi Tech. He still has 3 more slots to go & the head rest raises higher in booster mode. I think but I cant quite remember that the seat is 68cm tall in total, rear facing.

I like the idea of the two way ff until 25kg.

I have to put my multi tech back in my car tomorrow so i will measure for you, I drive a 98 bmw 3 series, its small lol but i have enough room in the passenger seat and i am 171cm (5'6") tall, in saying that i wouldn't want it behind the drivers seat.

they dont need top tethers forward facing, they use the long belt path to install and it is rock solid

it is through safe to go to become a technician

Here is the Multi Tech at its full height in harnessed mode





He has 20cm before his head is inline with the top of the shell. He has a 56cm torso when seated in this seat

Sorry about chiming in so late. Finn, delgrll and others have already provided such awesome info and pictures. Funny, I just supplied a mother in Spain a Multi Tech yesterday who was moving to Doha. Also not known for the best car seat safety in the world.

Britax Multi Tech and Britax Two-Way allow rear facing the longest. Seat shell is 62 cm, 24.5") for MT which is expandable another 2 inches. (see photo below). Teh car seats works a little strange when comparing torso and height up highest slot for harness. Highest slot ofr MT is around 16 inches but a child with 18 inches torso fits fine. In general, it would be very unsual not to hve a 4 year old fit rear facing in a Multi Tech. Most make it until 5.

Two-Way has a shorter seat shell at 60 cm (24") but it has one unique feature. It's the only seat in Europe which will allow rear facing to 55 lbs, forward facing with harness to 55 lbs, and also forward facing to 55 lbs with seat belt as a high back booster.

There are different opinions on harnessing after age 4. Swedes and some others say it's sfer using seat belt with high back booster and US and other say harnessing is safer. Either way, safety difference is small. What's important is to not put young kids in a booster. A child at 2.5 is far safer in a harness if he/she has to be forward facing.

Another thing which usually comes in handy with the Swedish eats is the easy install. They fit virtually any vehicle without extra equipment, something many who travel and use different cars appreciate.

If you have further questions, please feel free to ask here, PM me or email at ad@adventuredad.com

Love the photos, they are really helpful.

AdventureDad, thanks for your help. Please can you answer a couple more questions. We only have 1 car - I drive during the week and DH in weekends. The 2 girls sit in the back seat. So, we need to adjust seat positions often (he is 6'2" and I am 5'2"). How does this work with tethering of the Swedish restraints to seat in front? Do you need to re-tether each time you move the seat? And do you have the measurements of the seats from front to back so I can check if we can fit in whilst still allowing DH enough legroom. Not really an option to put restraint on front seat - I think DH would put his foot down if I had to sit in the back. I will have enough work to convince him that we should have both kids rear-facing till 4ish ("overkill" has been mentioned by him already!)

Thanks again.

Good question. Most of the Swedish seats are certifeid with a foot prop/support leg in the back and don't need to be leaning against a sat. So you could ahve seat istnalled in rear without support from seat in front.

Tethering is no problem, you can tether to virtually any vehicle without any extra equipment. Some vehicle in Europe have "d-rings" for easy install but many don't. Still easy to tether.

Largest seat, Multi Tech measures 50 cm.(20 inches) in depth when standing on the floor.

Another option is to istnall seat in the front seat. Most people don't know this but a rear facing seat is as safe or safer in the front seat as long as airbag is disabled with key/switch/service location. Research has proven this years ago. This is not really an option in US but it is in many other countries.

Rf past 12 months can be seen as overkill by many. But it's really a lot safer, 500% up to age two, and kids don't mind it. In the end it's up to each parent to decide on choices, I can only give some information to guide the decision.

Swedes have been rear facing since 1965, recommendation is to rf until 4 years of age. So far, after over a million rear facing seats used, there has not been a single fatality in a frontal collision. Unsurvivable events such as car in a river etc. re not counted. It does make a large difference but if it's woth it is not up to me to decide.

You might want to show hubby this short video I put together and then ask where he wants to put his child....

desertkiwi said:

So, we need to adjust seat positions often (he is 6'2" and I am 5'2"). How does this work with tethering of the Swedish restraints to seat in front? Do you need to re-tether each time you move the seat? .

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Just to clarify this, and in conjunction with what Adventuredad has said.
You can either tether to the floor (requiring a tether point on the floor, in which case you wouldn't need to do anything to move the seat) or to the seat in front. In many vehicles you can tether to the seat-runner, if it has a "runner loop". If not, to the actual seat itself. If you can use the runner loop, moving the seat won't be a problem. However, if you need to use the actual seat, then yes, you would need to re-tether when you move the seat.
You'd unclip the tethers, move the seat, then loosen/tighten the tethers and reclip. Yes, to be honest, that does seem a bit of a hassle if you're doing it often. It wouldn't be difficult, but not entirely convenient either!

Just to update this thread, I bought a Multi-Tech and it arrived superfast and I love it and so do the kids. It seems very safe, secure, good quality and comfortable. DD2 loves it and DD1 fits it easily too (although she is still in her Maxi-Cosi Priorifix at this stage). So, thanks to everyone for their advice :thumbsup:.

Here is a link to another thread with some photos of DD2 in her new seat....

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=796371

Thanks for the update

Desertkiwi,

Inorder to make the foot prop go green. You can unlock it and lift the seat a teeny weeeny bit by the upper part of the foot prop and extend it into the next hole. You dont want the car seat off the car´s own seat. Make sure that the MT remains in full contact with the car´s seat. This and perhaps move the foot prop at teeny weeny bit back or forth. Then ofcause you´ll need to hear that clicking sound when it locks. In this way, the foot prop will remain green even tough you loosen the tether straps.

Lena