Just Curious...............

Status
Not open for further replies.

Victorious4

Senior Community Member
Plus we refuse to buy a foreign vehicle.
Hey there -- I'm not arguing against anything you said & I agree that sometimes a huge vehicle or even a very small vehicle is what is needed, everyone has different needs ... I am curious about this bit, though. I mean, my brother says the same thing, but his reasons don't make sense to me & I'm wondering what yours are? Again, it's not that I disagree because I'm not even sure what there is to debate on, LOL, but with my brother he says it's about jobs & honestly it's almost an even playing field in that respect with American vehicles being made overseas & foreign vehicles being made here in America :eek:
 
ADS

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
WRONG!!! This is your personal perpective as mine is different.

Indeed. If you look closely at long term dependability ratings from Consumer Reports, you find there really isn't much difference in today's vehicles. While a half-black reliability projection may look a lot worse than a half-red circle, the actual difference does not amount to more than a problem or so over the first 5 years of ownership. The average rate of problems tracked is so low that being 30% above or below average doesn't amount to much when you compound it over 5 years or even 8 years which is as far as their data goes.

The differences 20 years ago were much greater and if you kept your car 10 years or more then you may well have seen a much bigger variation.

The same can be said about safety. Model A may well have a 30% lower fatality risk than average while model B is 30% higher. If you drive carefully and buckle up, your actual risk is so low that you might not really worry about 30% of such a small number. Though there are real differences, most vehicles today are pretty reliable and most are quite safe, too.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
Here is an article my dh sent me last year that was printed by a very reputable auto magazine.

There's a Toyota ad running currently that brags about the fact that they have eight manufacturing plants in the
U.S. building more than a million vehicles a year. The ad then finishes with some patriotic music and the statement
"Toyota - a company that has created over 200,000 U.S. jobs - a company proud to do its small part to add to the
landscape of America."


Take just four or five minutes to read this article. Read some actual facts about the U.S. auto industry, not the
spin put out by those wiley Japanese.

In terms of quality, of Toyota's eight plants, their best quality ranking is 16th. Of the top 10 plants for
quality, GM has eight of the top 10 and four of the top five.

And then there's the myth of the happy, teamwork-oriented worker who labors in a unionless paradise surrounded by
caring Japanese employers who only have his or her best interest at heart.

Fact: Toyota workers work for less money and are five times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on-the-job
injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days.

Toyota likes to propagate the myth of their commitment to the environment as evidenced by the standard set by the
Prius. What you don't hear about are the scores of Prius owners who are extremely unhappy with the performance and
mileage of their Prius. Ads claim 60 mpg - the reality is that many Prius owners get about half that mileage -
about 36 mpg. GM has five models that get similar mileage to the Prius and carry no price premium like the Prius -
but you never read about that.


If GM had a vehicle that advertised 60 mpg but actually delivered 36 mpg, you can bet that it would be front page
news, plus a nice segment on 60 Minutes.

But I digress. My point is that there is an incredibly unfair double standard in the media these days.
Inexplicably, U.S. bashing has become the fashionable thing to do. There's no better example than the constant warm
fuzzy stories churned out regularly about Toyota's legendary teamwork, safety and quality. And yet, the facts
simply don't bear this out. The fact is that Toyota gets a free ride from our lazy and complicit media.

But it's time to separate fact from fiction. Toyota is, and has been, waging a very successful PR war with way too
much assistance from our media. This results in a skewed viewpoint that dramatically affects how buyers perceive a
new car purchase.

For instance, how many of you know that Chevrolet was the best selling passenger car brand in the U.S. last year?

How many of you know that for three years in a row, Cadillac has sold more luxury cars than anyone else - including
Lexus and BMW?

How many of you are aware that, according to J.D. Power, GM was the number one multi-line manufacturer in Sales
Satisfaction last year? Where was Toyota (including Lexus)? Seventh place.

GM was ranked second in the critical Customer Service Satisfaction index in multi-line manufacturers last year.
Where was Toyota? Fifth place.

GM's lowest quality-rated vehicle is the Pontiac Vibe, assembled in California by - you guessed it - Toyota.

While Toyota is wrapping itself in the American flag with paid advertisements and help from our incompetent media,
GM, Ford and Chrysler manufactured over 75 percent of all vehicles built in the U.S. last year. And their average
domestic content is 82 percent. Toyota's is 40 percent (Lexus is 3 percent).

Every 100 GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicles produced in the U.S. supports the livelihood of 23 full-time workers.
Conversely, every point share gained by Toyota represents 18,000 lost American jobs and countless profit dollars
that are shipped overseas to Japan.

I am not suggesting that GM, Ford or Chrysler needs your charity, but I am suggesting that you should know the
facts before you buy.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I was wrong on the year that JD Power did the QC study it was 2004 not 2005. But, Here it is.

STATEMENT: “GM QUALITY SUCKS!”

FACTS:

QUALITY and DEPENDABILITY:

Strategic Vision 2004 Quality Study……..GM and Nissan tied for First.

2004 J.D. Power Award ……Vehicle Dependability Study (bought new – still own 3 years)

GM was number 4 in the industry….highest domestic at 264 problems per hundred……Toyota was at 207, Honda at 210, Porsche at 240.
But…GM was better than these ‘select’ companies

BMW – 264
Nissan – 271
Ford – 275
D Chry – 302
VW -- 366
Hyundai – 375

Consumer Reports:

In 2000, only 11% of our vehicles were rated average or above…….in 2004, it’s 65%.


PLANT AWARD WINNERS;

Number one plant in North America: Oshawa 2 – Buick LaCrosse score of 85
Number two plant in North America: Oshawa 1 – Impala/Monte Carlo score of 89
Number three plant in North America: Hamtramck – DeVille/LeSabre score of 90

The score is based on Problems per 100 vehicles……how does this compare?

Honda – Marysville, OH - score of 94
Toyota – Georgetown KY scorer of 99
Lansing Grand River (STS/CTS) score of 99
Bowling Green, KY (Corvette/XLR) score of 100
Fairfax KS (Malibu and Malibu MAXX) score of 101



STATEMENT: “GM DEALERS SUCK…THEIR SALES DEPARTMENTS SUCK AND SO DO THEIR SERVICE DEPARTMENTS!”

………..not so fast……………


Satisfaction with Sales Experience:

GM finished 2nd in overall sales satisfaction -- GM is highest ranked multi-divisional manufacturer…and ALL Divisions scored above Industry average. ALL GM Divisions ranked higher than Toyota or Honda.

Satisfaction with Service Experience:

Buick and Cadillac ranked in top 5 and outperformed LEXUS, HONDA, TOYOTA and NISSAN.

All GM Divisions scored above Industry Average and scored above NISSAN, TOYOTA, CHRYSLER AND VW…..they all scored BELOW Industry Average.

SO MUCH FOR GM DEALERSHIPS BEING ‘THE WORST’ AS CLAIMED BY MANY.






STATEMENT: “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”


82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

(by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda)

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.




STATEMENT: “GM FUEL ECONOMY SUCKS!”

GM has more car and truck segment fuel economy leaders than ANY manufacturer…a list is on www.gm.com

GM builds 19 car models that get 30mpg or better…..VW builds 14, DCX builds 13, TOYOTA with 12 and Ford with 11.

GM’s West Coast Hybrid Busses save more fuel than ALL Priuses sold in a year.

GM 4WD full size Utilities have the highest fuel economy in the industry

GM V8 pickups have the highest combined fuel economy in the industry

Those of you who have an LS1/LS6/LS2 engine know that incredible performance and fuel economy come out of our small block V8s……..




STATEMENT: THE PONTIAC G6 AND BUICK LACROSSE ARE JOKES….THEY DON’T SELL AND THEIR QUALITY SUCKS!” “THE COLORADO AND CANYON SUCK…NO ONE WANTS EM!” “THE COBALT IS NOTHING BUT A WARMED OVER CAVALIER AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT……IT’LL NEVER SELL”

G6 was the highest quality midsize vehicle in the 10th annual Strategic Vision Quality Study

44% of G6 sales are CONQUEST sales as of April

G6 outsold both the Ford 500 and Mercury Montego combined in April

G6 outsold Grand Am in April (versus 2004)

LaCrosse outsold Century and Regal combined by 7.4% versus 2004

Colorado and Canyon are leading their segment.

43% of Colorado/Canyon sales are CONQUEST sales

Cobalt Sedan sales set to outtrack Cavalier sales by 72K units by year end

Cobalt in April: outsold all of Mitsubishi, all of VW, all of Scion, all of Mazda, Mustang, Focus, and 300.



If you've made it this far......thank you for reading.

There are many other things I need to get off my chest......but I really don't want to drive you crazier than I already have.

Let me just finish with some thoughts:

>Despite what you are reading in the papers......GM has a bright future. I do not want to downplay the problems in which we find ourselves......but remember that the way to turn this company around is PRODUCT!

>We are in the midst of the largest launch of new products this company.....or the world, for that matter....has ever seen.

>Fuel economy will continue to improve......

>Here's some startling info: we get upset at the price of new vehicles and the price of gasoline: well.....in a recent study of Consumer Items as a percent of increase between 1982 and 2005 (source: U.S. Bureau of Labor statistics) take a look at what has increased and by how much:

>New vehicles 38.8%
>Personal care products 53.1%
>Gasoline 61.6%
>Beer/Ale/Malt Beverages at home 76.3%
>Meats 86.4%
>Food away from home 90.8%
>ALL ITEMS 91.3%
>Fish and Seafood 99.4%
>Airline fares 117.7%
>College and tuition costs 359.6%

so........funny, we complain about gas......but I haven't heard a lot about deodorant or beer! (yes, I realize you don't buy 20 gallons of deodorant a week......) but interesting facts none-the-less.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
Hey there -- I'm not arguing against anything you said & I agree that sometimes a huge vehicle or even a very small vehicle is what is needed, everyone has different needs ... I am curious about this bit, though. I mean, my brother says the same thing, but his reasons don't make sense to me & I'm wondering what yours are? Again, it's not that I disagree because I'm not even sure what there is to debate on, LOL, but with my brother he says it's about jobs & honestly it's almost an even playing field in that respect with American vehicles being made overseas & foreign vehicles being made here in America :eek:

This right here is why we will keep buying American made vehicles. It helps the "American" economy and not Japan's.

This is from a 2004 JD Power survey. I quoted the rest of the survey in my above post.

STATEMENT: “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”


82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

(by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda)

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.
 

Morganthe

New member
I'd love to buy American. :)
If GM US made cars were as comfortable and efficient as the GM Opels in Europe are, I'd be right on it. They are great vehicles with sensible styling and reliable performance. Unfortunately, US GM cars are not comfortable for us, nor have I found any within my budget that I would care to drive.

My husband will not buy anything made by Ford because of all the difficulties his family has had with their cars through the years. Could be just be bad luck, but after 4 sedans always having something seriously go wrong with them, he just won't do it.

I won't buy a Dodge Chrysler after 5 years of constant repairs and lack of respect from the personnel after I purchased my only new vehicle-- a Dodge Dakota in 1992. Thankfully, everything was under warranty, but my time was sooooo wasted by the idiots in the service department. The truck was always having problems with bearings, the electrical system, and transmission. Every 2000 miles something would break or get fussy. It also hurt to drive after I broke my ankle. I sold it to a guy who thought we were crazy for wanting a wagon.

These days, the US market is primarily aimed at SUV, Truck, & Minivan consumer these days. They're great, but I don't want one of those, so we look at foreign made cars.

I'm driving a used Toyota, but I'd rather have German. More personality. My dream car is a VW Passat Wagon, made in Germany, not MEXICO -- which is where they're assembled for the US market these days. There's a serious problem with their Quality Control and it's an embarrassment to the company.

I do care about the US economy & workers, but if the US companies don't want to make the style of car I need, why should I spend money on them? Not once has any car manufacturer ever called me up to survey about my vehicle desires after I've visited their website. When I contacted Dodge about the troubles I had with the truck, I was completely ignored. It seems that anything safety related must be dictated by law for it to be placed in non-luxury vehicles.

I would LOVE to see this vehicle style available on the US or Canadian market, but it's only available overseas in South America, Europe, & Asia. There's different varieties by Renault, Citroen, VW, and several others. A very roomy vehicle on a car chassis. Comes in 2 or 4 dr version with as much as or as least options as one could ever want. It's amazing in safety, space, & gas mileage. Here's a picture of one...
http://www.renault.co.uk/Productpage_home.aspx?m=kangoo&mi=1

Ah well, there's been some fusions of the Euro style cars now for Ford & Honda, so I can dream that someday, I'll be able to buy this for hubby.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I'd love to buy American. :)
If GM US made cars were as comfortable and efficient as the GM Opels in Europe are, I'd be right on it. They are great vehicles with sensible styling and reliable performance. Unfortunately, US GM cars are not comfortable for us, nor have I found any within my budget that I would care to drive.

My husband will not buy anything made by Ford because of all the difficulties his family has had with their cars through the years. Could be just be bad luck, but after 4 sedans always having something seriously go wrong with them, he just won't do it.

I won't buy a Dodge Chrysler after 5 years of constant repairs and lack of respect from the personnel after I purchased my only new vehicle-- a Dodge Dakota in 1992. Thankfully, everything was under warranty, but my time was sooooo wasted by the idiots in the service department. The truck was always having problems with bearings, the electrical system, and transmission. Every 2000 miles something would break or get fussy. It also hurt to drive after I broke my ankle. I sold it to a guy who thought we were crazy for wanting a wagon.

These days, the US market is primarily aimed at SUV, Truck, & Minivan consumer these days. They're great, but I don't want one of those, so we look at foreign made cars.

I'm driving a used Toyota, but I'd rather have German. More personality. My dream car is a VW Passat Wagon, made in Germany, not MEXICO -- which is where they're assembled for the US market these days. There's a serious problem with their Quality Control and it's an embarrassment to the company.

I do care about the US economy & workers, but if the US companies don't want to make the style of car I need, why should I spend money on them? Not once has any car manufacturer ever called me up to survey about my vehicle desires after I've visited their website. When I contacted Dodge about the troubles I had with the truck, I was completely ignored. It seems that anything safety related must be dictated by law for it to be placed in non-luxury vehicles.

I would LOVE to see this vehicle style available on the US or Canadian market, but it's only available overseas in South America, Europe, & Asia. There's different varieties by Renault, Citroen, VW, and several others. A very roomy vehicle on a car chassis. Comes in 2 or 4 dr version with as much as or as least options as one could ever want. It's amazing in safety, space, & gas mileage. Here's a picture of one...
http://www.renault.co.uk/Productpage_home.aspx?m=kangoo&mi=1

Ah well, there's been some fusions of the Euro style cars now for Ford & Honda, so I can dream that someday, I'll be able to buy this for hubby.

See I owned an '03 VW Passat sedan which was a nice vehicle styling wise but HORRIBLE problems. The service dealership was nice but not competant at all either. In the 18mths we owned that vehicle it was in the shop 22 times for varies problems. Also VW raked extremely low on JD Powers quality control survey.

Not all American made vehicles are assembled in Mexico and again the quality is all ones prespective. If you look at the JD Power survey I posted a few posts up GM ranked extremely high and had 3 of the top 5 in best quality vehicles on the market.

Styling is each persons desire of what they find attractive/appealing to their style. While some of the manufactures you posted ex Opels that spoke about don't have anything in their line up I find desirable.

That is the great thing about living in the land of the free. We have the freedom to buy what we please.
 

Morganthe

New member
I think you misunderstood.... Since around 2002 or so, the VW Passat has been made down in Mexico. That's what I was talking about, not other brands :) Before that, it was considered one of the most reliable cars ever. The seats & car styles just fit us and our flabby German heritage bodies. :p I'm actually angry that VW Passat has gone downhill.
I'd own another one in a heartbeat provided it was made in a US or German auto plant like the 4 (Rabbit, Passat sedan, Passat wagon, & Jetta) we've had previously. Or they've apologized to all their customers (such as you) and noticibly improved their quality control back to their old standards. :D
 

abacus2

Well-known member
I think this thread touches nerves because the same moral compass that guides many people to be responsible about car seat safety often also guides them to be responsible with their money. Most people cannot really afford a new (or newer) car (although many people delude themselves into thinking it's ok when they qualify for a ridiculous loan). The financially responsible choice often feels like it sacrifices their safety responsibility. To these people, "Why didn't you buy a new Odyssey?" sounds a lot like "Let them eat cake." It's painfully absurd to their life.

P.S. I realize "Why didn't you buy a new Odyssey?" isn't what you meant to say, but it came out sounding like that.
 

Morganthe

New member
To these people, "Why didn't you buy a new Odyssey?" sounds a lot like "Let them eat cake." It's painfully absurd to their life.

P.S. I realize "Why didn't you buy a new Odyssey?" isn't what you meant to say, but it came out sounding like that.

Your analogy is right on the marker especially since the whole "let them eat cake" has been sooooo completely misunderstood through the centuries. Cake flour then was nothing like what it is today. It was more of a heavy biscuit/scone type that wasn't fancy at all. It was cheaper and more plentiful at the time because (I think) of certain problems with the grain that was used for bread (if I remember that minor detail correctly :p )
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I agree! I feel like at times it is shoved down everyone's throats that they should own a minivan esp a Honda Ody or Toyota Sienna. But, There are some people out there like myself that HATE those vehicles. I think they are the most ugly looking vehicles on the road along with most minivans. Now please know this is my personal opinion and it's not saying the vehicles are not good vehicles. I personal don't find a single thing atterative about them. And, If I am going to spend $30+k on a vehicle I am going to get something I like and like to drive. And, That vehicle was my Tahoe. I love it and I love to drive it.

Again to each their own as to what they want to drive. The great thing about living in the land of the free. I have the right to decide for myself.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
To these people, "Why didn't you buy a new Odyssey?" sounds a lot like "Let them eat cake." It's painfully absurd to their life.

This may be true for some people, but it clearly wasn't the point of the original poster or of this thread in general. The real point of this thread (as I see it) applies more to the questions, "Why did you trade in your old 2001 VW Jetta on that used 2004 Dodge Neon?", "Why did you buy that 1997 Toyota Avalon when you could have had a 2000 Chevy Impala for about the same price?" or "Why did you finance that 2004 Chevy Blazer your husband wanted you to have when you could have paid cash for that 2000 Ford Windstar you liked?". Also, "It's great that you bought a new car for your kids to be safer, but why a 2006 Mazda3 instead of a 2006 Honda Civic?" or "Why did you get that 2007 Ford Expedition with so few crash test results instead of the 2006 Ford Freestyle or Freestar which cost less?"

I would ask the same questions, if the safety of the occupants was a major factor in the purchase. There are very legitimate reasons someone might make those choices, but crash protection isn't one of them. There really is no way to rationalize those kinds of choices with just safety in mind, even though they may have been a better choice overall for other reasons.

The point is not to tell all people that they need the newest, safest vehicle with all the great features. The point is to tell those people who are shopping for a vehicle that with any budget they can do a little research and find models that are safer than others.

Some people buy one model over another because it came in a nicer color or had sportier wheels. Others buy because one had an awesome sounding V8 instead of a whiny 4-cylinder. Some have a preference because of a perception of reliability, others because they are loyal to a brand. Some want to drive to work daily in stop-and-go traffic knowing that their vehicle can do 0-60 in 6 seconds or cross rocky mountain streams with ease. To each their own, of course. The original poster wondered why people still buy unsafe cars. I don't believe there was any judgement on people who won't (or can't) buy a safer, newer car. I also don't think it was a judgement on those who bought some safe, new model (say a Chevy Equinox SUV), even if it is not quite as safe as a higher rated competitor (perhaps a Honda CR-V or Subaru Legacy Wagon).

I think it's fair to say that just about everyone coming to this forum will think about safety when they do purchase their next new or used car. That's not to say that safety will be the only factor or even the top factor in the purchase, but at least it is a consideration. That's great. The problem is that I suspect the majority of other consumers could care less about safety when looking at vehicles and I believe those are the people that the original poster was questioning. I question them, too, especially if they have families who ride with them.

No one is being expected to dump their current car and go into bankruptcy by spending $19,846 (according to Carsdirect.com) on a top-rated 2006 Kia Sedona LX, one of the most crashworthy on the road today. On the other hand, I think it is very reasonable to ask parents to put as much time or more time researching safety as they do researching other aspects of buying their next vehicle, new or used, subcompact or mega SUV. Whether they choose to buy one of the safer models in the class and price range is indeed their decision, of course.
 

lovinwaves

New member
Darren,

YOU ARE INCREDIBLE!! What a great writer. I couldn't have said it better myself. You hit the nail right on the head. Again this is not a money issue, poor or rich this is about choosing a safe vehicle of any budget and any model year. I understand the newer vehicles have safer features, but of course not everyone can afford that. Whether it's a '98 or a '03 model some cars are safer than others in "EVERY CLASS" of vehicle. I OF COURSE would never expect everyone to have an Odyssey. I mean puhlease.. that is ridiculous to think that. And on top of that there are MANY other vehicles on the road today that are as safe if not safer than an Odyssey. My thread had nothing to do with "Odysseys" what so ever. Everything Darren said above is exactly what I was asking, he just did it much much much better! Thank you Darren for conveying it much better.

I think this thread has been extremely extremely misunderstood and has obviously expired in it's original meaning.....Noone on here should be on the defense, which is the vibe I'm getting. Everyone on this forum obviously cares ALOT about their families safety! Too each their own as the above poster said, and let's leave it at that.

And may we all buckle up, drive safety, and alertly and for heavens sake have a "great carseat Install"!!! :D
 

flipper68

Senior Community Member
When I saw this post AGAIN at the top of the page, I thought, "geesh, just let it go."

On a more humorous note about brand loyality, my dad (73) bought/drove/owned FORD vehicles for his entire life. In part because his neighbor and best friend's dad was the FORD dealer in the small town he grew up. . . .

Anyway, just like in the Brady Bunch, he met this lady. The lady became his wife. She's 5 foot nothing on a good day and he's 6' 2". After they were married, there were 5 Ford vehicles in the driveway (and 6 drivers, but that's another amusing story). He soon discovered however that he didn't fit in the truck if she was driving so they went car shopping. Surprise, surprise: Ford didn't offer a split seat option in their trucks (buckets, yes, splits, no). This was in 1986-87. . .he has owned Buick and Chevy vehicles ever since.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
Darren,

YOU ARE INCREDIBLE!! What a great writer. I couldn't have said it better myself. You hit the nail right on the head. Again this is not a money issue, poor or rich this is about choosing a safe vehicle of any budget and any model year. I understand the newer vehicles have safer features, but of course not everyone can afford that. Whether it's a '98 or a '03 model some cars are safer than others in "EVERY CLASS" of vehicle. I OF COURSE would never expect everyone to have an Odyssey. I mean puhlease.. that is ridiculous to think that. And on top of that there are MANY other vehicles on the road today that are as safe if not safer than an Odyssey. My thread had nothing to do with "Odysseys" what so ever. Everything Darren said above is exactly what I was asking, he just did it much much much better! Thank you Darren for conveying it much better.

I think this thread has been extremely extremely misunderstood and has obviously expired in it's original meaning.....Noone on here should be on the defense, which is the vibe I'm getting. Everyone on this forum obviously cares ALOT about their families safety! Too each their own as the above poster said, and let's leave it at that.

And may we all buckle up, drive safety, and alertly and for heavens sake have a "great carseat Install"!!! :D

I just want to state I was saying in general when a poster as a vehicle opinions question that clearly states they don't want a minivan for their family of 2 or 4 or how many ever kids. They first thing many on here jump to "why not a minivan" or a "minivan is safer & better then a suv". This has occurred many times that I have seen. It makes us parents that own large suv's feel like we are knowningly putting our child(ren) at some great harm.

It's like us techs when we are working with a parent in the real world and not on here. We are not supposed to give bias on a certain brand of car seat. So, I can't walk up to a mom or dad that bought a less expensive Cosco seat and say you didn't do your research. And, If you had you would know that the Britax seat is safer.

I live in a high income community. I work on a lot of Britax car seats in expensive vehicles. But, I also work with these same parents that drive up in vehicles that cost as much as a home but have inexpensive seats in them. I don't judge that family b/c they went budget friendly on their car seats. I am just glad they are doing their best and coming into our fitting station to make sure their child restraint is in properly & used correctly each and ever single time.

Like Darren said "we" don't know the curcumstance behind their buying decision. We have to be open minded and believe that parent is doing the very best with what they have or can do to protect their child & family. Be it the vehicle they choice to buy or the car seat.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
I just want to state I was saying in general when a poster as a vehicle opinions question that clearly states they don't want a minivan for their family of 2 or 4 or how many ever kids. They first thing many on here jump to "why not a minivan" or a "minivan is safer & better then a suv". This has occurred many times that I have seen. It makes us parents that own large suv's feel like we are knowningly putting our child(ren) at some great harm.

While it is true that a number of minivans are safer (in terms of crashworthiness, handling, braking, etc) than the vast majority of SUVs, that doesn't imply that most SUVs are unsafe or that their parents are subjecting their children to great potential risk. If a particular type or model of vehicle best meets someone's requirements and is a safer choice, perhaps they should reconsider. Some parents may not have realized all the benefits of a particular type or model and may indeed find that it best suits their needs even though they weren't considering it originally. We techs give tons of advice here everyday that may not be what parents really wanted to hear. We don't have a ton of data to support it, but it's still the safest advice so we give it- whether they take it, leave it or feel offended by it is up to them.

For example, we often tell parents of a 30 pound 2-year old that they should turn their child back to RF, that a seat with a RF tether might be safer in their particular situation or that they need a $300 seat with higher harness limits now rather than a $15 backless booster later. These may all be sound advice, but it may not be what most parents want to hear if they came looking for justification on keeping their child FF or continuing to use a less expensive carseat. The fact is, unlike comparing many vehicles, we have almost no data showing significant benefits of RF tethers, RF for older kids or the differences in safety among different brands/types/models of age appropriate restraints.

I think it's fair to say most of us make choices that aren't always the absolute safest possible. That doesn't mean we are doing something unsafe for our children, though. It's one thing to say, "Hey, did you know that minivan XXX seats 1 more person than SUV YYY that you are considering? It also gets better fuel economy, has better and more complete crash test results, has better handling and the seating and power doors are a lot more convenient for kids. You might want to take another look." It's quite another thing to say, "Hey that SUV yyy is a death trap and I can't believe you'd put your kids into that thing when you could buy minivan xxx for less!"
 

Admin

Admin - Webmaster
Upon request, I am locking this thread for the time being. Everything was polite, but for now I think the topic has been well discussed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,656
Messages
2,196,898
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top