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  1. #1
    CPS Technician Victorious4's Avatar
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    Post GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...rpc=22&sp=true

    General Motors Corp on Monday unveiled an unusually frank advertisement acknowledging it had "disappointed" and sometimes even "betrayed" American consumers

    we acknowledge we have disappointed you," the ad said. "At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster."
    TIFF ~ doula & all hours childcare provider
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  3. #2
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    That's unusually honest.
    I've never purchased a GM brand - their cars, except for the Saturn division, have never appealed to me. Even those were lackluster for dh & I. And they were overly focused on SUVs & trucks (just as admitted), which are not our types of vehicles.

    I wonder what the other American automakers will say now.
    My Munchkin -- Nov 2008--5 years, 45.5", 42lbs
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  4. #3
    CPS Technician Victorious4's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganthe View Post
    That's unusually honest.
    Yes . . . for any company, anywhere....

    I wonder what the other American automakers will say now.
    I just hope this is one piece that can help more Americans to like American vehicles again
    TIFF ~ doula & all hours childcare provider
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  5. #4
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by papooses View Post

    I just hope this is one piece that can help more Americans to like American vehicles again
    Regardless of what they say, until they change their products, I'm totally indifferent. I don't want any of our carmakers to go out of business. I'd like them to focus on quality of small cars, sedans, & wagons along with their larger vehicles fleet.

    Oh and an emphasis of after sale-care. My Dakota completely soured me on dealership warranty work or maintenance. 5 years of frequenting a small town dealership and they couldn't bother to remember my name or respect my time.
    That's what it would take me to "like" an American vehicle.
    My Munchkin -- Nov 2008--5 years, 45.5", 42lbs
    Current Stats: 12 years old /5'5/ 115lbs/ Seatbelt

    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

  6. #5
    CPS Technician Victorious4's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganthe View Post
    I'd like them to focus on quality of small cars, sedans, & wagons along with their larger vehicles fleet.

    Oh and an emphasis of after sale-care.

    That's what it would take me to "like" an American vehicle.
    Exactly Hopefully "coming clean" evolves into all that. . . .
    TIFF ~ doula & all hours childcare provider
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  7. #6
    CPS Technician emandbri's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    I was very disappointed in the oldsmoble I had. It was a 91 88 royal that my dad bought me in 1997. I only had it for 2 years but we must have put $4000 into it. When I totaled it it needed $1500 worth of work done to it!

    We had a camry at the same time that was also a 91 and had the same number of miles on it and we didn't have to put any money in it at all! I replaced the olds with a nissan and other then it have always bought toyotas since then.

    Emily tech and mom to Jacob 16, Daniel 13, Benjamin 9, Elizabeth 6. Child care provider to 4 other kiddos.

  8. #7
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Agree with all above. There are some good vehicles, like SUV's and some sports cars, but there is way too much crap. No reason to have so many brands and so many alternatives. Quality is much better than previously but still could be a lot better. Comparing with competitors which sell similar cars does make you wonder why anyone should buy a GM etc.

    I've had a couple of sports cars, Chevrolet Corvette and Chevrolet Camaro Iroc Z, that I was happy with but those and small niche cars.

    Funny you should mention Toyota Camry. My prents bought a brand new Toyota Camry in 1989 and used it for over ten years without doing anything else than changing light bulbs and some oil changes. They gave the car away to some friends and still today it's working great.

    My concern on all this is time frame. Changing vehicle focus, improving quality, making cars more desirable, improving reputation, and getting confidence back from consumers aren't exactly things done in a month or three. It takes many years IMHO. Doing it while trying to save lots of money also makes it far more difficult.

    It's shame change has come so late, and that is has to be forced. Writing has been on the wall for years but nothing has been done.
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  9. #8
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Yeah, spots of isolated success do not make a successful car company. I loved saturn. Lots of good products now, but GM did a complete 180 from what made it so loved and successful in the past.

    GM really needs to kill off brands (just wish Saturn weren't one of them) and stop brand engineering so much. Causes way too much competition for itself. Sucks cuz I actually prefer GM for some strange reason, but Ford is the one that looks like it still has a future.

  10. #9
    Senior Community Member Adventuredad's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    I agree. It's not all bad but there are some classic mistakes. Like having so many brands. Buick Oldsmobile, Chrysler, Saturn, GMC, Mercury, Chevrolet, and probably 5 more I forgot about. Even if god cars are made it's expensive and complicated to have so many brands and models.

    Bad thing in this business is it takes quite a while to turn things around. I don't see any way it's going to work without a few hundred billions more and perhaps 5 years of time.

    I think some kind of planned bankrupcy might be a good idea simply to renegotiate contracts with unions. I think they are a huge part in the failure but are unwilling to many sacrifices

    Hope it all works out somehow
    Annika: 8 • Britax Adventure
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  11. #10
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    I know I am late to this ball game but a planned bankruptcy is the worst thing any automaker could do. The reason is just because they file bankruptcy you then have these "bankruptcy attorneys" come in and scour over your books & every little thing. If they don't like what they see they then report this back to the judge that their is no saving one of the Big 3. That means they are out of business.

    Everyone thinks chapter 11 just will help them restructure but it is not that easy. Plus it will drop consumer confidence which is already low and in a time were auto sales have dropped 40+% for all manufactures. If this was 6yrs ago when times were good then that would be one thing but when we as a country are in an economy crisis we can't handle one of the largest corps to go belly up right now esp one that provides millions of jobs here in the US & over seas. This would impact the world not just the US.
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  12. #11
    CPST Instructor Avery'sMama's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    If anyone doubts the impact of the big three on the economy, please come spend a day in Michigan. We felt the first hit of the crumbling economy that has obviously spread. And if GM and the others are allowed to fail, the hit that will immediatly become catostraphic here will spread as well. The factories, suppliers and dealerships that employ people are all not just here in the "rust belt". And the resteraunts and businesses that those people spend their paychecks in, are not just next door to the factories. What blows my mind, and makes me angry every day when I watch the news, is why banks can be handled tens of billions of dollars more than the big three, with no oversight and no accoutability, but the big three should be forced into bankruptcy? Costing how many jobs? And how much of a ripple affect? I don't understand, I CAN'T understand, why the banks are treated so differently then the car companies. Yes, they both made huge mistakes, and they both need to have more oversight and guidance with our tax payer dollars. But allowing them to go under, even into a 'structured bankruptcy' is not a solution. It WILL add more fuel to the fire of our economic collapse. If you doubt that, again, please come here for a day and explain to me how that is.
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  13. #12
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by Avery'sMama View Post
    If anyone doubts the impact of the big three on the economy, please come spend a day in Michigan. We felt the first hit of the crumbling economy that has obviously spread. And if GM and the others are allowed to fail, the hit that will immediatly become catostraphic here will spread as well. The factories, suppliers and dealerships that employ people are all not just here in the "rust belt". And the resteraunts and businesses that those people spend their paychecks in, are not just next door to the factories. What blows my mind, and makes me angry every day when I watch the news, is why banks can be handled tens of billions of dollars more than the big three, with no oversight and no accoutability, but the big three should be forced into bankruptcy? Costing how many jobs? And how much of a ripple affect? I don't understand, I CAN'T understand, why the banks are treated so differently then the car companies. Yes, they both made huge mistakes, and they both need to have more oversight and guidance with our tax payer dollars. But allowing them to go under, even into a 'structured bankruptcy' is not a solution. It WILL add more fuel to the fire of our economic collapse. If you doubt that, again, please come here for a day and explain to me how that is.
    Carrie, I'm not personally impacted the same way as you - or anywhere near to the manner as you, but I agree 100% with what you're saying. The ripple effect is huge... less demand for auto parts, will mean that the suppliers of the auto parts will be forced to raise their prices for the remaining auto manufacturers. Increased cost to produce will translate to increased retail prices. Increased retail prices will lead to reduced sales - and before you know it more car manufacturers will be at risk of going under - or pulling out of the north American market if nothing else...

    For every action there's a reaction. Anyone saying that allowing the free market to determine who does and doesn't stay in business is missing the bigger picture in terms of the mass unemployment and greater number of people struggling to just meet the basics for living - plus the increase in those who would need government support - putting a further drain on government funds.

    I hope that something works out. I'd like to know why it is that car dealers are being told sink or swim, it's a free market economy - yet banks are being completely rescued... maybe it has to do with the government having a lot of money that would have to be paid out in terms of guaranteed savings anyways? I don't know... but it sucks.

    (Is it awful that I had the thought the other day though about some of those futuristic movies where everybody is driving the same "bubble" of a car? With the current state of the car manufacturers we could indeed lose a lot of competition and choice in designs. Maybe everyone will drive identical vehicles 20yrs from now. )
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  14. #13
    CPS Fanatic SavsMom's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    My father was a new car dealer for 30+ years and what has occurred with the US auto industry is strictly the fault of those companies that are struggling. They (most notably GM, and Chrysler) have slipped up and simply haven't made a vehicle that can compete in regards to quality and resale of the Japanese car companies in quite some time. Ford has actually improved in quality, design and resale value in the past couple of years - and the other companies need to take some cues from what they are doing.

    I also firmly believe that the UAW needs to get with reality as well - they are being greedy as can be. If they want to stay employed they are going to need to make some concessions in regards to pay and benefits. I don't blame anyone for taking a job that pays far more than it should, but when the company you are working for is needing to borrow money from the goverment to stay afloat and the UAW doesn't think they should make any concessions - then I say let em' sink.

    There are many people that are also so critical on the Japanese automakers (Honda and Toyota) and it has been said over and over that they aren't American companies, why would you buy a Japanese car rather than a car made in the US - I must say - more Japanese cars are made in the US than any of the big 3 (many of which are made in Mexico and Canada).

    If you want a good example of how the big 3 should be run - tour the Toyota Camry plant in Georgetown KY - there workers make a great products, take pride in their work, make a decent living, have good benefits, but are not greedy like the UAW.

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  15. #14
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by SavsMom View Post
    My father was a new car dealer for 30+ years and what has occurred with the US auto industry is strictly the fault of those companies that are struggling. They (most notably GM, and Chrysler) have slipped up and simply haven't made a vehicle that can compete in regards to quality and resale of the Japanese car companies in quite some time. Ford has actually improved in quality, design and resale value in the past couple of years - and the other companies need to take some cues from what they are doing.

    I also firmly believe that the UAW needs to get with reality as well - they are being greedy as can be. If they want to stay employed they are going to need to make some concessions in regards to pay and benefits. I don't blame anyone for taking a job that pays far more than it should, but when the company you are working for is needing to borrow money from the goverment to stay afloat and the UAW doesn't think they should make any concessions - then I say let em' sink.

    There are many people that are also so critical on the Japanese automakers (Honda and Toyota) and it has been said over and over that they aren't American companies, why would you buy a Japanese car rather than a car made in the US - I must say - more Japanese cars are made in the US than any of the big 3 (many of which are made in Mexico and Canada).

    If you want a good example of how the big 3 should be run - tour the Toyota Camry plant in Georgetown KY - there workers make a great products, take pride in their work, make a decent living, have good benefits, but are not greedy like the UAW.
    The UAW is not being greedy by any means. The UAW is made up of employees of those manufactures. They have taken pay cuts, health care reductions, loss of pentitions, no 401k matching, etc... What else can they give up?

    These workers still have to support their families. Your wrong that GM hasn't made vehicles in the past that compete in quality & resale of other competitors. GM for years has had some of the top awards in quality per models. Have had top selling vehicles over the foreign manufactures. They (the big 3) have less on the job injuries then foreign manufactures. This all speaks volumes. Plus look at how many employees the Big 3 have her just in the US compared to foreign manufactures. Look at what the Big 3 contributes to the US economy compared to the foreign brands. It's HUNDREDS of MILLIONS more per year.

    I am sorry but everyone has the resale thing so skewed. They forget to take into account the orginal purchase price between the 2 vehicles. If you have a $30k vehicle compared to a $20k vehicle sure the resale of the $20k is going to be less of then the $30k. Also you need to look at the actual cost of ownership which many don't take into account. So, It is very skewed when not comparing apples to apples.

    Here is a good example that just occured between my friends Toyota Sequia & my Chevy Tahoe. Both vehicles wer 2005 models and top of the line for both. We both paid within $1k of each other. Mine was $1k less then her's. When we both traded in our vehicles in Sept. my vehicle had 56,000 miles on it her's was just 49,000. Both we in excellent condition with no mechinical issues. Her resale value was only $500 more then mine and I contribute that to mine have 7,000 more miles then her vehicle. Plus my actual cost of ownership was several thousand of dollars less. In the 4yrs of ownership I was only out 4 new tires & 1 battery (which was my fault). She had to have her a/c replaced when her vehicle was out of factory warrenty.

    She now owns a '09 Honda Accord & I have a '09 Pontiac G8 and again our purchase prices were close to the same. And, Her vehicle has already had to visit the shop for costly warrenty work and mine only for a computer update. So at this time my GM vehicles have had better quality control then her Toyota & now Honda.
    Jenny
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  16. #15
    CPS Fanatic Morganthe's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by jen_nah View Post
    I am sorry but everyone has the resale thing so skewed. They forget to take into account the orginal purchase price between the 2 vehicles. If you have a $30k vehicle compared to a $20k vehicle sure the resale of the $20k is going to be less of then the $30k. Also you need to look at the actual cost of ownership which many don't take into account. So, It is very skewed when not comparing apples to apples.

    Here is a good example that just occured between my friends Toyota Sequia & my Chevy Tahoe. Both vehicles wer 2005 models and top of the line for both. We both paid within $1k of each other. Mine was $1k less then her's. When we both traded in our vehicles in Sept. my vehicle had 56,000 miles on it her's was just 49,000. Both we in excellent condition with no mechinical issues. Her resale value was only $500 more then mine and I contribute that to mine have 7,000 more miles then her vehicle. Plus my actual cost of ownership was several thousand of dollars less. In the 4yrs of ownership I was only out 4 new tires & 1 battery (which was my fault). She had to have her a/c replaced when her vehicle was out of factory warrenty.

    She now owns a '09 Honda Accord & I have a '09 Pontiac G8 and again our purchase prices were close to the same. And, Her vehicle has already had to visit the shop for costly warrenty work and mine only for a computer update. So at this time my GM vehicles have had better quality control then her Toyota & now Honda.
    Very true on what you say, unfortunately, the Big 3 has not put out any comprable quality Sedans or wagons. For those of us who don't want a large vehicle, in quality level, there's not much choice except to turn to a Japanese or European vehicle. And therein lies the screwover that the high mucky mucks at the Big three failed to remember from the 1970s. ALL vehicle sizes are necessary for success. Styles change, gas prices go up & down, you have to have an inventory that appeals all over, not just to those who who yearn for large vehicles.
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  17. #16
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    You can't compare UAW wages to non-union wages. They're actually quite similar. It's just that Honda and other non-union plants pay similar wages so there's no reason to unionize. They also tend to be in states where the local population isn't so quick to unionize cuz that's just not what they do or are used to.

    That said, the avg person looking at autoworker salaries is just in awe. $30/hr for many jobs that wouldn't get anywhere near that in another industry. In that sense, the "greedy" label fits. It's just that it applies to the non-union workers too.

    The main cost disparity is from legacy benefits. Primarily from retired workers. Greedy can apply there I guess, but that's all in the eye of the beholder. They asked. GM and the others were dumb/weak enough to agree. Benefits were crazy. I wouldn't hold that against the UAW too much. Yeah, it sucks they have to give up stuff now or might lose it soon, but it's stuff the majority of workers in the US couldn't dream of getting. So, little sympathy there.

    And yes, it's pretty established that domestics produced utter crap for decades. Isolated good product, but overall, it wasn't good. ANd you can get a lemon from anyone. But, until VERY recently, the quality difference was noticeable. It's gotten better and better so it hasn't been a big difference from many years, but still noticeable. What's disturbing, and what many Americans don't want to admit, is the reason why the gap has closed. GM/Ford/Chrysler started pulling execs from the foreign companies and started taking cues on how they ran their plants. So, they got better there. The foreigners started using more and more domestic suppliers. So, they started having worse quality. The new Toyota Corolla, previously an unbreakable car, has weird electrical problems. Doesn't start randomly, etc. What did the mechanics find? The electrical part was sourced from Delphi.

    The key thing to look at is cars vs trucks/suvs. The foreigners produced good cars. The domestics produced crap cars. The domestics had good trucks (and later suvs; but this is all a relatively new phenomenon). The foreigners didn't have trucks other than the odd compact pickup, and only later developed trucks/suvs. In the full size arena, they're still learning how to play it. Below that size level, they just used car based chassis to make what are now known as crossover vehicles. Those were always good and the non full sized domestics weren't (cuz their cars sucked or they used trucks for vehicles that are basically car based wagons). See the Rav-4/CR-V vs the Trailblazer/H3. Things are more even now, but we'll see if it's too late to save things. Perception can't be changed overnight.

    Resale value is based on demand. In Texas, that's domestic country - full sized truck territory at that. Just like Michigan and pretty much most of the midwest/south. On the coasts, people don't blindly buy American. It's more diverse. And full sized trucks/suvs aren't quite so popular. There, demand for domestics is much lower and you will see the huge resale price difference btw domestics and foreign cars. The one state that throws everything off is California. It has soooo many people and soooo many cars, whatever it does is basically how it will be "generally". And CA is on the coast and doesn't blindly buy domestics, and it's preferences affect the total US car market.

  18. #17
    CPS Fanatic SavsMom's Avatar
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    I rest my case:

    http://www.freep.com/article/2009022...SS01/902270319

    http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM...-Benefits.aspx

    In regards to the resale value of the Tahoe VS Sequoia - the Tahoe has been one of GM's bestsellers and it is a good vehicle, as is the Sequioa, however ALL SUV's are hurting for resale value.

    If you are to look at an Manheim Market Report (for car dealers attending the US's largest auto auctions) a 2008 Honda Accord EX V6 will bring roughly $2,500 more at auction than a similar 2008 Pontiac G8....that spread tends to increase as a car ages in the first 3 years. In the same regards a 2008 Toyota Camry XLE will bring roughly $18,500 at auction where a 2008 Chevy Impala LTZ will only bring $13,333 -

    In regards to the original sales price - the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Pontiac G8, Chevy Impala and Ford Fusion are very close to one another in their MSRP - however Honda and Toyota do not give out huge rebates. These huge rebates will do a lot to hurt a vehicles resale value. Why would you buy a 2 year old car when with a huge rebate you can get a new one for not much more....thats where the US manuf are really hurting themselves. They have gotten into the habit of "giving the car away" with rebates and incentives to sell them. We are actually getting a new Jeep Grand Cherokee tomorrow and guess what we are getting $6,500 in rebates on it - that is insane. There is documented proof just by looking at the Manheim Market Report that will show you how much better a Honda or Toyota will hold its value vs a domestic brand vehicle....I'd be happy to print the screens and post them here as proof.

    As I had stated before my father was a franchise dealer (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Dodge, Chrylser, Jeep) for 30+ years, he even recently got a Camry after driving a Ford Fusion - while he loved his Fusion he stated himself that in comparison to his Camry the Ford can't compare - and in resale value (look at the auction data) he knows he will get more out of his Camry when he sells it at auction next year than he would ever get out of another Ford. I myself drive a Ford Escape and love my little SUV - BUT its high time the US car companies admit their mistakes and get their acts together.

    Quote Originally Posted by jen_nah View Post
    The UAW is not being greedy by any means. The UAW is made up of employees of those manufactures. They have taken pay cuts, health care reductions, loss of pentitions, no 401k matching, etc... What else can they give up?

    These workers still have to support their families. Your wrong that GM hasn't made vehicles in the past that compete in quality & resale of other competitors. GM for years has had some of the top awards in quality per models. Have had top selling vehicles over the foreign manufactures. They (the big 3) have less on the job injuries then foreign manufactures. This all speaks volumes. Plus look at how many employees the Big 3 have her just in the US compared to foreign manufactures. Look at what the Big 3 contributes to the US economy compared to the foreign brands. It's HUNDREDS of MILLIONS more per year.

    I am sorry but everyone has the resale thing so skewed. They forget to take into account the orginal purchase price between the 2 vehicles. If you have a $30k vehicle compared to a $20k vehicle sure the resale of the $20k is going to be less of then the $30k. Also you need to look at the actual cost of ownership which many don't take into account. So, It is very skewed when not comparing apples to apples.

    Here is a good example that just occured between my friends Toyota Sequia & my Chevy Tahoe. Both vehicles wer 2005 models and top of the line for both. We both paid within $1k of each other. Mine was $1k less then her's. When we both traded in our vehicles in Sept. my vehicle had 56,000 miles on it her's was just 49,000. Both we in excellent condition with no mechinical issues. Her resale value was only $500 more then mine and I contribute that to mine have 7,000 more miles then her vehicle. Plus my actual cost of ownership was several thousand of dollars less. In the 4yrs of ownership I was only out 4 new tires & 1 battery (which was my fault). She had to have her a/c replaced when her vehicle was out of factory warrenty.

    She now owns a '09 Honda Accord & I have a '09 Pontiac G8 and again our purchase prices were close to the same. And, Her vehicle has already had to visit the shop for costly warrenty work and mine only for a computer update. So at this time my GM vehicles have had better quality control then her Toyota & now Honda.

    DD - 12/07 - Backless Turbo
    DS - 9/13 - Boulevard

  19. #18
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by SavsMom View Post
    BUT its high time the US car companies admit their mistakes and get their acts together.
    They're doing that. Well, GM admitted fault anyways. But they are getting their acts together. They just need about another decade in time at the rate they're going. With all their other problems, in addition to the biggie one of the tanked world economy, they might not last long enough.

    The Fusion and Impala aren't that bad. I don't think they're as good as the media makes them out to be (media actually doesn't like the Camry; they just grudgingly admit that the buying public loves it even as they spew disdain for it), but they're a definite step in the right direction. The Camry and Accord aren't as nice as they used to be. Well, they're nice, they're just not as "perfect" as they used to be and not as dominating over the competition. Since they're not doing as well maintaining top dog status and the Fusion/Impala are making improvements, their next gen versions have a chance to catch up to the Japanese.

    The Acadia and siblings are great crossovers. Ford has the Mazda CX-9 and Flex. They're showing life there. The Pilot and Highlander are overrated. The domestic minivans still suck, but no one buys those things much anyways. In another decade, Detroit should have the products to legitimately worry the Japanese. It's just a matter of them surviving long enough (and having enough money) to produce these new vehicles. CUz even if they produce it, they also need time for the public to feel they're worth buying and look past their horrible history and realize it's a new era finally.

    Course, this is all assuming that old Honda/Toyota buyers switch to Detroit instead of Korea. Yet another wrinkle in all this.

  20. #19
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    I agree that Ford is doing a much better job. The Fusion is a nice looking nice driving car...and the 2010 looks like it is going to be very nice...hopefully in time with their positive reviews it will help them to regain their costumer base as well as retain for resale value.

    Quote Originally Posted by codex57 View Post
    They're doing that. Well, GM admitted fault anyways. But they are getting their acts together. They just need about another decade in time at the rate they're going. With all their other problems, in addition to the biggie one of the tanked world economy, they might not last long enough.

    The Fusion and Impala aren't that bad. I don't think they're as good as the media makes them out to be (media actually doesn't like the Camry; they just grudgingly admit that the buying public loves it even as they spew disdain for it), but they're a definite step in the right direction. The Camry and Accord aren't as nice as they used to be. Well, they're nice, they're just not as "perfect" as they used to be and not as dominating over the competition. Since they're not doing as well maintaining top dog status and the Fusion/Impala are making improvements, their next gen versions have a chance to catch up to the Japanese.

    DD - 12/07 - Backless Turbo
    DS - 9/13 - Boulevard

  21. #20
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    Re: GM says it "disappointed" and "betrayed" consumers

    Quote Originally Posted by SavsMom View Post
    I rest my case:

    http://www.freep.com/article/2009022...SS01/902270319

    http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM...-Benefits.aspx

    In regards to the resale value of the Tahoe VS Sequoia - the Tahoe has been one of GM's bestsellers and it is a good vehicle, as is the Sequioa, however ALL SUV's are hurting for resale value.

    If you are to look at an Manheim Market Report (for car dealers attending the US's largest auto auctions) a 2008 Honda Accord EX V6 will bring roughly $2,500 more at auction than a similar 2008 Pontiac G8....that spread tends to increase as a car ages in the first 3 years. In the same regards a 2008 Toyota Camry XLE will bring roughly $18,500 at auction where a 2008 Chevy Impala LTZ will only bring $13,333 -

    In regards to the original sales price - the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Pontiac G8, Chevy Impala and Ford Fusion are very close to one another in their MSRP - however Honda and Toyota do not give out huge rebates. These huge rebates will do a lot to hurt a vehicles resale value. Why would you buy a 2 year old car when with a huge rebate you can get a new one for not much more....thats where the US manuf are really hurting themselves. They have gotten into the habit of "giving the car away" with rebates and incentives to sell them. We are actually getting a new Jeep Grand Cherokee tomorrow and guess what we are getting $6,500 in rebates on it - that is insane. There is documented proof just by looking at the Manheim Market Report that will show you how much better a Honda or Toyota will hold its value vs a domestic brand vehicle....I'd be happy to print the screens and post them here as proof.

    As I had stated before my father was a franchise dealer (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Dodge, Chrylser, Jeep) for 30+ years, he even recently got a Camry after driving a Ford Fusion - while he loved his Fusion he stated himself that in comparison to his Camry the Ford can't compare - and in resale value (look at the auction data) he knows he will get more out of his Camry when he sells it at auction next year than he would ever get out of another Ford. I myself drive a Ford Escape and love my little SUV - BUT its high time the US car companies admit their mistakes and get their acts together.
    Your talking auction price. Remember resale is only going to be what someone is willing to pay. Also comparing a 2008 Camry to a 2008 is still comparing apples to oranges. The 2008 Camry is a new platform and newly redesigned where as the 2008 Impala has been around for over 5yrs with very little changes to it's current model. Now compare the Malibu to the Toyota (simular trim levels). Both are reselling for simular prices on the used car market and also at auctions (my SIL is in the auto auction business in OK). I do agree rebates are not a good thing but blame that one all your fellow neighbors. Everyone wants something for nothing. GM & Ford has done away with a large portion of their rebates (can't talk for Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep). The only thing they have done recently (well last year) was their employee pricing which they do every year on their previous year models. Toyota & Honda do the same thing.

    As for your links the CR finding is so biased it's not even funny. They have been biased for a very long time and majority of the time have always dogged the American brands when other leading auto magazines have raved about that model. I tend to believe real auto magazines (Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc...) that have true car enthusiast and even race car drivers behind the wheels of these vehicles.

    Again, Tell me why should the worker have to keep giving up their benefits? Also those #'s are not acute at all. What they do is take to cost of benefits and average it with actual working hour employees and don't take into account that those health benefit costs also imply to all the retired employees. Those workers are not making $69 with benefits.

    Are you also aware that a unionized factory of any kind is more efficient & has less on the job injuries then a non union factory? Also are you aware that unions are what created this country? If it weren't for unions we the employee wouldn't have the rights we do today. We wouldn't have 40hr work weeks with over time, sick time, paid holidays, etc... that we do today. So don't dog the horse that made this great country.

    What we as citizens of this country should be demanding is more products to be made in this country and that foreign imports be reduced or at least be equalized. We shouldn't be importing more goods then we export. We need to get back to buying American products and supporting our country instead of making other countries big, stronger & soon more powerful then us.
    Jenny
    Senior CPS Tech-Instructor & Mommy of 2 girls
    K1 12 yrs old- 61" & 100lbs in vehicle seat belt
    K2 10 yrs old- 59" & 92lbs in vehicle seat belt

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