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  1. #1
    KailuaTaco
    Guest

    Latch AND Seat Belt?

    Aloha,

    I have a 2006 Toyota Tacoma double cab and Combi Connection seat
    base.

    This vehicle has no rear center position Latch anchors (only outboard)
    and the seat belt installation is a little shaky, even with a few
    twists to shorten the female buckle and addition of locking clip
    (needed to shorten buckle to clear side of base). I have an appointment
    with a tech but it won't be for a few weeks. My wife's due date is
    sooner than that, unfortunately. Retailer has politely refused to check
    installation for liability reasons. Fire stations here don't do it. I know...
    I should've started earlier. My bad.

    I would REALLY like to have the seat in the center position.

    Question: Can I use the center seat belt AND the two inner Latch
    anchors? As long as I connect the seat belt first, the seat and Latch
    belts seem to function independently of eachother (they don't keep
    eachother from tightening). And the installation seems very secure;
    much better than the seat belt alone.

    I've heard (read) this question asked before but the answer (use only
    the seatbelt or outboard Latch positions) seemed to avoid the obvious
    possibility that two is better than one. And yes, I do understand that using
    the inner Latch anchors alone is a no-no.

    Thanks for any help and/or advice!

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  3. #2
    CPS Technician
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    2,226
    You canNOT use both LATCH and the seatbelt together.

    The seat has not been tested this way and you could make your newborn a crash test dummy...and I know you don't want to do that.

    From what you described---I think you may be using the locking clip incorrectly as well.

    Can you take pictures and post them---we would be able to help more then.

    Also since your baby will be RF for some time...it's ok to go outboard...RF outboard is safer than FF outboard.

    Susan
    Mommy to my angel, Ethan Daniel (8/5/07-8/6/07)
    Mommy to Nicholas (12-29-08) RF'ed to 2.75 yrs in Graco MyRide(crashed) and a True Fit Primier. FF in the TFP and a Graco Nautilus Elite. Nicholas is 2.75 yrs old, 32 lbs and 36" tall.
    Child Passenger Safety Tech

  4. #3
    Senior Community Member scatterbunny's Avatar
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    Oregon
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    Yes, the locking clip used to shorten the long female buckle stalk is a BIG no-no. Locking clips are pre-crash positioners meant to hold a lap+shoulderbelt together at an appropriate point so during a crash the vehicle's own locking mechanism will kick in and lock it tight. The locking clip will most likely pop right off at that point, already having done its job.

    In this case, with a locking clip on the buckle stalk, the locking clip will pop off and there will be that much slack in the belt, allowing the carseat to be VERY loose in a crash. If you need to shorten a female buckle stalk to get the buckle out of the carseat belt path, you should twist the female buckle stalk UP TO three full twists, no more than that.

    Susan is also right, you should never use LATCh and the seatbelt together, it has not been tested that way and could fail in a crash.

    Rear-facing so so safe anyway, it isn't a big deal to put the seat on one side.
    ~Jenny

    "When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people." ~Abraham Joshua Hesche

  5. #4
    Carseat Crazy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    328
    The female end must be REALLY long to get both twists and a locking clip on it??

    You can twist the female part three full twists.

    The locking clip (if needed) must be on the *seat belt*, close to the male buckle. (ie, 1" away from the buckle not a foot away). You cannot put it on the female buckle side.

    No using LATCH and the seat belt.

    The outboard positions are perfectly safe. A RF seat, CORRECTLY INSTALLED is incredibly, incredibly safe in any position. I'd be inclined to just move it outboard as it will likely install very well.

    That seat may well not be compatible with the center. When you move to a convertible seat, maybe you'll have better luck. Go to a store that lets you try 'em out.

    I stressed myself crazy trying to install my daughter's seat center in our new car because "center is safest!!". Until it dawned on me that I was pregnant and in a few short weeks no one was going to be able to ride center.

  6. #5
    KailuaTaco
    Guest

    Latch AND Seat Belt

    Thanks for the quick replies!

    Aah. My fears are realized. There is no real technical answer because there haven't been any tests done. And since there have been no tests done, no one wants the liability problems. So simply, like you said, Don't do it. My baby is not going to be a crash test dummy.

    And sorry...I miswrote: The locking clip is NOT on the stalk. It's about an inch above the sliding clasp, as directed). The stalk was twisted to shorten it so the clip can clear the seat base. But that is moot now. I'll simply use the latch attachments on the outboard position.

    Seems very odd that while the large majority feels the center position is the safest, the majority of the new cars have the newer innovation - Latch - only on the outboard positions. What is the reasoning there?

    Oh well...Thanks again for the quick responses. This is a GREAT forum!

    Aloha!

    Ken
    Kailua, HI

  7. #6
    CPS Technician
    Join Date
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    MD
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    2,226
    Car makers have to have 2 LATCh positions...and the most logical place to put them is outboard.

    I have 3 LATCh positions, but can't use them all with LATCh at the same time. I could use all 3 belts/tethers at the same time or a combination of belt and LATCh.

    Anymore you need help with...let us know...we LOVE to help with car seats and such!

    Susan
    Mommy to my angel, Ethan Daniel (8/5/07-8/6/07)
    Mommy to Nicholas (12-29-08) RF'ed to 2.75 yrs in Graco MyRide(crashed) and a True Fit Primier. FF in the TFP and a Graco Nautilus Elite. Nicholas is 2.75 yrs old, 32 lbs and 36" tall.
    Child Passenger Safety Tech

  8. #7
    Admin - CPST Instructor wendytthomas's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
    Posts
    29,025
    Like Susan said, you have to have two LATCH positions, and the LATCH anchors must be 11 inches apart. So unless you have a wiiide backseat they will not be able to fit three sets across. *Some* vehicles do allow the inner anchors to be used for the middle, but most don't.

    The center installation with the seatbelt is just as safe provided you can get a good install. Either LATCH or seatbelt are fine, but not both. Whatever works best.

    My car also has a LONG stalk in the center. Blasted thing. I have it twisted three times and it's just BARELY short enough to work. I've posted here for help about it a bunch, and I'm satisfied with my installation, though one of my instructors for my CPST class hated it, and another grudging said it was acceptable, since I, like you, prefer the center.

    Wendy
    wendy, cpst-i mom to
    piper, 7/26/02, 62", 108#, seatbelt, driving her own car
    laine 9/16/09, 54", 96#, Nuna Aaces, Diono Solana 2
    in my husband's 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser, my 2017 Volvo XC90, and big sister's 2016 Honda Civic
    https://www.car-seat.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1353&dateline=1552329  785

  9. #8
    Senior Community Member scatterbunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KailuaTaco
    There is no real technical answer because there haven't been any tests done. And since there have been no tests done, no one wants the liability problems. So simply, like you said, Don't do it. My baby is not going to be a crash test dummy.
    Yes, you have it exactly correct. And I'm glad you said that last sentence...it's something we say quite a bit here, but sometimes we are viewed as harsh for putting it that way. It is the truth, though.

    And sorry...I miswrote: The locking clip is NOT on the stalk. It's about an inch above the sliding clasp, as directed). The stalk was twisted to shorten it so the clip can clear the seat base.
    That's good to hear!

    Seems very odd that while the large majority feels the center position is the safest, the majority of the new cars have the newer innovation - Latch - only on the outboard positions. What is the reasoning there?
    Even though intuitively the center is the safest, because it is furthest from any potential point of impact, there isn't any hard data to back that theory up. There isn't even any hard data showing which side of the vehicle is safer than the other.

    Others gave good explanations of why there are usually only lower anchors outboard; it all has to do with spacing and how many anchors can fit across the backseat being spaced the appropriate distance apart.

    Oh well...Thanks again for the quick responses. This is a GREAT forum!

    Aloha!

    Ken
    Kailua, HI
    Quite a few of us are daily posters here, myself being one of them. I love this forum, I've posted here since 2003 and have always been given fabulous advice, and have learned so much that I just can't help but want to share it with others. I'm glad you found this forum to be as wonderful as I do!
    ~Jenny

    "When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people." ~Abraham Joshua Hesche

  10. #9
    CPS Technician Victorious4's Avatar
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    2 is not better than 1.

    Carseats are tested with only 1 method at a time & that is how they're meant to be used.... Attempting to install with both at the same time could prove counter-productive by rendering eachother ineffective, thus leading to preventable injury

    We don't know for sure what will happen with both methods of install used together, but it's not allowed as per manuals & what we do know is that a properly installed carseat outboard near the door is much safer than an incorrectly installed carseat in the center

    It is vital to always follow BOTH carseat & vehicle manuals

    Toyota doesn't usually give any added information about install if it isn't already in the manual -- if the manual doesn't forbid center install with LATCH then you must call the carseat manufacturer for the final word as to whether or not it's safe....
    TIFF ~ doula & all hours childcare provider
    SCARLA: winter '02 . . . Jr. Roller Derby level III
    BEAR: spring '11 ... Recaro Sport + Clek Oobr
    RAHNE: summer '17 ... MicoMax30 + RadianRXT
    childcare: 0-7yrs... Contender + Frontier Clicktight
    {emergencies: Scenera Next, Highback, Topside}

  11. #10
    CPS Technician
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,680
    I had parents come in w/ an infant seat and a Toyota car and we just couldn't get it in the middle. Maybe something about Toyota? It had to be on the outboard and installed well w/ LATCH. Unfortunately some vehicles just don't take well to having carseats in the middle. A correct installation outboard is better than a not so great one in the middle. Maybe when you go to the check, they can help more.
    Jennifer, Special Needs CPST, peds nurse, and CSFTL Admin mom to:
    AJ-13 (five steps), Evan-11 (nbb),
    Ilana-9 (nbb) ,
    Olivia-7 (hbb), and
    Unity-3 (rf and ff)

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