First day of my CPS class. I had fun, and I'm a bit annoyed

I knew most of the stuff relating to car seats (though ALR/ELR confused me until I saw it actually done on a seatbelt). The NHTSA's five roles in child safety was new to me, but after the test on Friday I think that'll be pushed into the back of my head anyway.

What annoyed me was when we were in the cars looking at the seatbelts, since my car was one of the ones chosen, the instructors were in there too. They were playing with my install of Piper's seat and they didn't like it. The stalk is simply too long. I can't twist the strap AND use a lockoff, according to them, and since Britax requires a lockoff, then I can't twist the strap at all. There was also a huge pause when they heard she was nearly four years old and rearfacing. So they wanted to move her outboard. I said I don't want her outboard, I want her in the middle. Then they said that if she was to be outboard then the passenger side was safest (I thought it was personal decision, in class not but two hours before they had said statistically there was little difference). I asked why. She said, 1) if I need to pull over on the side of the highway then she'll be on the passenger side and therefore not on the road side (that's not guaranteed, I've pulled off on the left. Plus she's old enough to be told, "Piper, meet me at that door," and if she wasn't I could climb into the car from that side and get her out anyway). 2) On the driver side she's at risk of being involved on a two lane road in a side swipe, should it happen. I can't disagree with this one, but if she's on the other side then if I need to swerve I'm put in the position of do I put her in the way, or me. Plus I can't reach her either way outboard. I know in an ideal world kids sit in their seats with no possible projectiles amusing themselves for the trip while Mom and Dad sit perfectly facing forward, barely moving except to check the mirrors, but this isn't fantasyland, this is reality. I need to be able to reach Piper. And I can't do that outboard. Behind me she's too hard to reach, and passenger side she's too far away (I sit as close to the steering wheel as possible with the seatback as upright as possible). Plus they installed her forward facing (actually, I did, I wanted them to check me as I did it, but they suggested forward and I suggested me installing it). Why would they not advocate her rearfacing since she doesn't meet the limits of the seat, which is another thing they had just said about two hours before?

So I'm annoyed. There seem to be inconsistencies with what they're teaching and what they're telling me. Then I'm annoyed my seat doesn't fit in my car. Easy solution to that, though, get a new car. Told Nathan that we need one. We'll see. I'm annoyed because all of the coursework says 1 AND 20 pounds, not 18 months AND 30 pounds. If they're going to start changing people's minds, don't you think they'd start with brand new techs?

They did have a new Safeseat 1 & 2 there, as well as a Britax Laptop, which was cool to finally handle. They had a trailer FULL of carseats, I need to take a picture tomorrow, but we haven't played with any actual installations tomorrow. Just looked at seatbelts/latchplates/LATCH etc. today. Lots of yada yada and not so much in the carseat department. But you guys are right. Most of the nitty gritty stuff that pertains to carseats I got without a problem (I did get wrong that a frontal crash is not more deadly than a lateral, I thought frontal. I won't make that mistake again). I think I was also the only one to climb in a car and go butt up over a seat trying to find the tether anchors (a 2005 Explorer, the cargo hooks are the tether points, and they're not labelled).

Plus we got caught out in the rain today. Blech. Tomorrow will be worse with 2"-5" of rain predicted.

Oh well. It'll be fun, and I'll learn a bit more, but boy I wish I could just take the test (without the boring red tape NHTSA stuff) and be done with it. I am looking forward to handling something other than Britax and Radians, though.

Wendy

I've never heard that you can't twist the belt and use the lockoffs at the same time. And it doesn't surprise me they wanted you to turn her FF. At the time of my class Hayley was 4 years and 8 months old, about 45 inches tall and 45 pounds, harnessed in a Fisher Price Futura. When the instructors found out her age they instantly said I should have her in a booster. I said she was not mature enough to sit properly at all times, that she uses a booster sometimes (the Parkway was also in my van) but she can't handle trips longer than about 15 minutes.

I hope tomorrow isn't TOO terrible, with that much rain! Have fun!

Luckilly my instructors seemed happy that my 8 year old uses the Husky

But, if I were you I'd try to call Jeep & Britax to share the response in class -- if you can record your conversation that'd be fun

I forgot about the roles of nhtsa, I think that is new, I don't remember it from my 4 day class but I do remember it from my refresher a few months ago.

It is funny that they teach one thing but say another, in a way its good though. They HAVE to teach EXACTLY what the book says. They can have their opinions but can't say them during class.

It sucks they moved her from the middle, very odd. I guess its time to buy a new car when Nathan gets home.

How did Piper do with your parents? I hope they are having fun!

Rachel

They said she didn't even ask for me all day (no surprise. ) and that she did great, they all had a lot of fun. Tomorrow's a busier day for them, so we'll see what happens then.

She just woke up, so I put her in front of the TV while I finish my homework. I better get crackin' before Zoboo tells his last joke!

Wendy

IT sounds frustrating! I cringe when I hear stories like that and am SOOO happy that I had such a great team of instructors! I hope things are going better. I had such a blast, but admittedly knew most of the technical stuff already. Our instructors told us to push for at least 18 mos when telling parents about turning their kids, but of course since AJ was almost 3 before he had to turn, I always mention that instead. lol

Did they say WHY you cant twist the belt stauk and use the lock offs? There's no way to do it besides to twist the belt stauck once b/c the buckle is in the lock off. Britax says no locking clip so what the heck am i supposed to do? I'm not selling my car (i am selling the van to my SIL as i dont need it anymore) i love that car. Damn damn damn. I'm going to go buy freaking coscos at least they dont have all these rules!

DoS, why don't you call Britax and ASK them if they forbid twisting the buckle stalk and using the lockoffs at the same time before you freak out and go buy new seats? Just a thought. IMO it sounds like Wendy's instructors are mistaken, so don't even worry about selling your car or buying new seats until you hear something concrete from the manufacturer.

Wendy~ Girl I totally hear you on being annoyed at the instructors and their...umm ever changing suggestions. Half the time my instructors would contradict themselves and the other half they were contradicting what another instructor told us the day before. I like you kept thinking to myself...can't I just bypass all this and take the test already?!?! Haha I hope today is better and the rain isn't too brutal on you!
Can't wait to hear about day #2!

Jen, i'm just being cranky. I wouldnt sell my car or buy coscos (well ok i'm getting a intra as a spare) I cant imagine they would forbid it without putting it in the manuals but i do sort of understand why it could be forbidden. I just redid my seats yesterday b/c of the rule about no locking clips and Ryans is no where near as tight as it was with the clip. I think i'll call tomorrow and get the facts about this.

Dreaming_of_Speed said:

I just redid my seats yesterday b/c of the rule about no locking clips and Ryans is no where near as tight as it was with the clip. I think i'll call tomorrow and get the facts about this.

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Isn't the no locking clip thing in the manual. Why doesn't the locking clip on the seat do its job?

Why don't you use your nice new van that would fit the kids so much better and safer than a tiny little death trap car?

Rachel

I had a similar experience of the instructors contradicting eachother, themselves & NHTSA -- in the end I contact the state coordinator & discussed it with her ... I'd collected enough information in the meantime from other CPST/Is to feel confident doing so, but the coordinator seemed glad to have the feedback for use in following up with instructors I feel that it's very important for instructors (even more so than the rest of us CPSTs)to remain current & consistent with safest practice information!

Day two

I'm far too tired (just did 48 homework questions after getting home and getting child down at 10 p.m., I left at 6:45 this morning) to start a new thread.

I called Britax on my lunch hour. Twice, actually. Once to ask about the twisting and the lockoff. According to Britax they CAN be used together (more on instructor's reaction later). Then I called back because I remembered about the LATCH bar being in the way and wanted to check with them. A lap lockingplate nonretractor belt MUST be under the LATCH bar. When the seat is installed with a shoulder/lap belt the shoulder belt helps hold it, so it can be installed over the LATCH bar. But a nonretracting lap only belt must have the assistance of the LATCH bar. Fine, I appreciated her answering that for me. I actually went and tried it and got a nice, tight install under the LATCH belt rear facing in the middle of my truck.

I went inside and told the instructor and she said that it's not that you can't use both (oh really???? Her exact quote was, "You can use a lockoff or twist it, but you can't use two fixes at once.") it's that your stalk is so tall that it doesn't make a difference, you'd need to twist it more than three times to get it to shorten. Ok, fair enough. However, I got it installed, and the latchplate/buckle combo is pretty close to 90 degrees from the seat (which she said it HAD to be, not 91, not 89, not 100, not 80, 90 degrees exactly). Probably less than 5 degrees from completely upright. But I'm hoping to find a protractor somewhere (HA! Not tonight or before I leave in the morning!) and accurately measure the angle. I feel that it's safe, personally, but she gave me the, "It's your choice, but you're putting your child at risk," spiel. She strikes me as the type who if I came into a check and said I wanted her on the driver's side forward facing she would sigh the sigh of imminent death and do what I wanted. She's a former K9 police officer, and does NOT like me.

But, other than that I had a blast. We had our first skills test where we identified the seatbelts/airbags/LATCH, etc. in six different cars. You had three tries to pass each car, so a minimum of 6 and a maximum of 18 tries. I got it in 7 (messed up the latchplate of a 1999 Crown Vic rear outboard). Oh well. Then we had a hands on where we went down a checklist of things to find on a carseat (labels, adjust harness, how many belt paths, etc.). My first seat was an Evenflo Orion, which was a blast to play with, but as it turns out it was missing pieces, had extra pieces, and was otherwise generally broken. They told me to get another. SURE! hehe I picked up a bright orange Combi Avatar Sundance. I tore into that thing and finished my second seat off before some had finished their first. It was a blast.

Our final hands on was when we were given a car with a child's age and weight (no height). I was handed a 6 year 2 month old who weighed 60 pounds. Pick the appropriate device for the child. I slammed that kiddo in a Marathon. Said that the slots were above the shoulders, that the ears were not yet above the frame, and the child was within the weight requirements. I also said that due to their age a high back or no back booster would also be acceptable. The Evil Instructor (EI) had been looking mine over good and hard while everyone else was going (I was last, right before we left for the day) and she didn't say anything, but I got the impression she didn't like it. She's the one who wanted Piper forward facing, couldn't believe I had a nearly four year old rear facing, is not doing anything more to advocate above 1 and 20 etc. But the Pregnant Instructor (PI) was doing this exercise, so when it came to mine and I said my say all she said was, "That is correct," and left it at that. Of course it is! Give me something hard next time. LOL

I left my clipboard in the classroom, but I noticed a couple of errors from the instructors. Like saying the Graco Safeseat 2 is a convertible seat (FF only from 20-40 pounds, right?). Something else too I wanted to check here, but those notes are in the classroom.

Tonight after class I met my mother and daughter at playgroup, and as we were leaving a friend asked me if I could help with her daughter's seat (one of Piper's old Advantages). She needed the headrest raised and was having trouble. So I go in and crank it some, it goes up, put her child in to see how we're doing and try to crank with her in there and it won't budge. So remove child, crank, repeat. hehe I got that up high enough and installed her (though the straps were twisted, but I wasn't going to uninstall for a single twist). Then the mom asked if I knew about the BPB her 3 year old (4 soon like Piper) 38 pound son has been using for a while. She said she got it from a neighbor and she doesn't like how she has to keep pulling over to release the slack from the shoulder belt. So I leaned over to see what the make and model was, and the first thing I noticed was the manufacture date. 3/17/00. Well, that solves that problem. The carseat is expired. She can't use it. She would rather a harness anyway (in their other car I believe he's still harnessed). So I sent her a link to the Britaxes and Radian and FP and Apex 65 (it's both Safety 1st and Cosco branded, right?) with prices and descriptions. They're all leaving on a road trip tomorrow, then flying to Chile for several weeks, so she said she was going to take their other carseats, and when she got home she would move around the carseats, get rid of this expired one (hmmm, I may volunteer for my first carseat dismantling), and would get a new one. She wanted to volunteer me for a group carseat check when I'm certified. I told her I'd be happy to do it. That was just a great end to a fun day, except for EI. Oh well, I'll just let her attitude roll off my back. I know a lot and that's fine by me. I have more to learn, I'm not going to try to teach the class (though I helped the guy next to me, a big tough police officer, who had an 8 month 22 pound child, and my favorite, a Wizard, to play with. LOL It was even blue, like Piper's) but I know a lot more than most of the people there. And I'm going to have fun. It's been a while since I've sat with a bunch of guys and debated which stripper name is better (pet name + name of first street you lived on). LOL I sit next to Bolt Yorkshire and he's next to Willow Dellwood. Across the way is Tiki Decovney. I'm Smudge Pulver, which they seemed to like for some reason.

Oh, and when I spoke to Britax (I'm being switched over to BrEYEtax, not BrIHtax) today I asked about fixing the knobs on the seat and they said they couldn't be fixed since I was outside of warranty. So off to convince Nathan within a few months that I want a Boulevard. I can't think of anything else that really gets my heart going. There are some that seem more fun, but I like Britax and I love the Wizard. I DO want a cup holder, though. LOL If I wasn't enjoying her RFing so much I may just go for a Regent. LOL I hope Nathan doesn't remember that we do already have a spare seat that could easily be installed in my car (though not according to the instructors who said that the buckle and latchplate in the middle of the radian would not lock in case of an accident, which makes NO sense to me as that's about where it would be on a person's body, and it's trusted to stop that person).

There are two of my instructors I like a lot (they're both men, actually, and one is more laid back and is the main instructor), PI is pretty good, but EI could be the deal breaker. I just think of you guys razzing on her, and if she's right or wrong I just feel better about it. LOL

More updating tomorrow night! I'm pooped and need to be in the shower in 5.5 hours.

Wendy

Probably a stupid question

but what do you mean..

I did get wrong that a frontal crash is not more deadly than a lateral, I thought frontal. I won't make that mistake again).

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Wendy, I'm glad it's going a bit better -- you'll make it through with the EI & IMO you should feel free to remind her (as kindly as possible, LOL) that instructors are supposed to keep personal oppinion out of the class room as well as the hands on tasks ... that they must follow the curriculum & manufacturers It would have been tough for me to do so, but I wish I had made that point during my course because I just know some of the other new techs have come away with incorrect information that they're passing on to families

Also, lateral means side-impact crashes: frontal crashes are more common, but lateral (side) crashes are more likely to cause brain injury which makes them more deadly.

rachel3612 said:

Isn't the no locking clip thing in the manual. Why doesn't the locking clip on the seat do its job?

Why don't you use your nice new van that would fit the kids so much better and safer than a tiny little death trap car?

Rachel

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It doesnt say anything yes or no about using a locking clip.

I dont want to drive the van. I love my sports car (which is not a death trap and not tiny) I only bought the van b/c i had too many passengers for the car but at this point i can put all my kids in my car until the twins need convertibles which could be close to a year. I dont need a van, its too big, too slow, and just plain not for me! I could handle the idea of driving it when i was going to have 4 kids but now that i'm down to three i want something thats more me. As for it being a death trap, considering the fact the car was made 13 years ago and there hasn't been a single death in one, i'm not worried. I've never even seen a sever injury (anything beyond a scratches and bruises) in a car that was intact, the light bodied and improperly modded cars have had a few but my car is intact and straight as a pin (had it straightened less than a year ago after the accident).

Wendy, it sounds as if the EI is trying to give you a hard time. If the things she is saying are so important why are they in the manual for the seat? I love the stripper names thing! We use a similar system for our race teams nicknames and anyone who goes racing with us has to have one. Did you get a picture of the trailer full of seats? I would love to have a trailer full of seats to play with and compare!

Wendy~ I am glad things are going better! I know how hard it is to hold your tounge with those instructors though! I wish my instructors were more like the women and men on this board and knew what they were doing and had the passion to back it up. I kept wondering why the main isntructor had her job, head of SafeKids in Oregon, if she doesn't even have passion for child safety?!? Hope things keep getting better!

Today was awesome!!!

Two hours outside in 90+ weather installing different seats in different cars. I had a BLAST! I installed some tough ones in my car (thank you Nissan for super long stalks) and they were all acceptable installations. I did a nania infant seat (no base, from 2003) that had a fun installation with the lap over the seat and the shoulder around the front. I liked that. Even used a pool noodle on it.

This morning was a lot of lecture, but it was mostly stuff I already knew.

The best part? EI left right after lunch!! LOL

While I was installing the seats I had a Combi Avatar Sundance in my middle spot, forward facing (who the hell designed that belt bath??) and I asked about the buckle placement and how it was twisted. PI said that it was an acceptable installation. Well then, then, if that's acceptable, why was I given the "You're putting your child at risk" spiel from EI yesterday? You guys were right all the long. Putting Piper rear facing in the middle with the stalk twisted three times IS an acceptable installation. It's not ideal, but then again, IMO with one child neither is an outboard position. And parental choice, I'd rather put her in the safety of the middle in an acceptable installation than in an ideal installation outboard. Vindicated!

Oh, this morning we did the "which position is best" game. I loved it. What fun. One five person car, one six. I got it perfect, of course. hehehe

Here's the picture of the trailer o' carseats. I didn't get all of them in the shot, and I only had my phone, not my camera. That's EI in the picture, btw.



Wendy

Ohh she looks EVIL!!! Haha I am just kidding! It is great you are having such a blast at class! Enjoy tomorrow!

I am glad you had fun today! Nice to know that EI was wrong!!!! Your EI looks like mine. LOL You live way to far away for that to be possible. Maybe all the evil ones just are wrong. I actually though and asked the other instructor if the EI was in training to be an instructor because they don't tell the class when they do that until the end to get a fair evaluation. He laughed and said she just didn't teach often. I know the instructor I asked very well before that class, since it was just a refresher.

This makes me want to go work some checks but then I remember its about 105 out there most days and I change my mind. LOL We don't do many checks this time of year. Cold and rain is so much better! We do them in the fire truck bay so we are out of the rain.

Good luck on your test!

Rachel