Vent I just don't get why ppl are so resistant to ERF?

morninglori

New member
Ugg..I need to vent somewhere!

So to start off, I have learned a lot about the importance of ERF and extended harnessing, and gotten a lot of good advice. I would really like to pass some of the info on to some of my friends, however it seems to fall on deaf ears.

There are a lot of kiddos in my group of friends, ages 10mo to 4.5 years. There are 2 other babies turning 1 this year and both of their dads told me how excited the are to turn their sons around in just a few weeks....How one kid is just so uncomfortable because his feet are touching the back seat, and how much better it will be to load and unload their kids- finally. I mentioned to them that I have learned about ERF and how much safer it is for baby, and how the AAP actually recommends RF to the limits of the seat, and how the AAP may be revising the guidance to say 2years RF. The response back I got was..."What, don't you like looking at your kid" and then I got, "Well, if you get rear-ended then the baby's neck gets injured, and the seat can ricochet into the back window." I mentioned that that is a possibility, but frontal crashes are statistically more common and that they can possibly tether RF - they have Britax seats and newer Trucks. I basically got the expected anti ERF responses, so then just left it at "You may want to look into RF past 1year and see what you find."

I really hope I didn't come off preachy, and once I saw that they were not "open" to "non-mainstream" options, I just dropped it as quickly as I could.

I sometimes just don't get why people, educated, responsible, "I have to get the Britax (because it's the safest on CR) for everyone who is driving my son around" people, who obviously care greatly for their children won't even consider this option. Also, I don't even want to get started on the prevalent HBB use for the 3-4.5yos....

I mean the number of stars that the car seat gets on CR is not what saves lives, it's how you use it.

I know I am "preaching to the choir" but I had to get it out, but if anyone has any suggestions on how to get their attention so they can "discover" these options, I would appreciate it. Other than that, I know that my children are as safe as I can help them be, and even if those other families decide not to ERF, if ever I need to transport their kids, they will be RF.

OK thanks for the place to vent.

Lori
 
ADS

MissAllyLou

New member
I'd like to know this too! We had such a frustrating clinic today, with everybody SOOO against ERF! And I'm sorry, but all of the reasons were STUPID. One mom, of a 19 month old, 23 pound boy said she wanted him forward facing because "he likes to look out the windows." Then a dad came in with his 13 month old, 21 pound baby, and wanted her turned forward facing. He refused ERF because "her legs look squished." There were 4 more parents like them today!!!! I just wish they had a "real" reason to flip them, instead of a stupid one. And I can't stand that they all buy Britax because they are "so safe" but don't use their features!
 

emandbri

Well-known member
I think it is just such a "new" idea. I mean it isn't new to us because we sit and chat about car seats all day but the average parent just really hasn't heard anything. A year and 20 lbs had been drilled into people's heads so long that that is what they think of. I also think it really helps if they hear about it over and over again. Sure we can tell a parent at a check about it but it would be so nice if they hear it other places as well.

I drilled ERF hard into the parents today at the check, it was kind of hard to judge if they will listen or not, I hope so.
 

abacus2

Well-known member
Personally, I think it's that they don't believe. They don't believe they'll ever be in a serious accident. They don't believe manufacturers would recommend anything unsafe. And they don't believe RF vs. FF vs. Booters have any significant differences in safety. They believe a car seat is a car seat and that's good enough.
 

shauburg

Active member
Have you sent them Joel's story? Maybe they need to see how RF would have saved a real-life child much pain & suffering. (Not that it made a difference to many of my friends/family, so I do know how you feel)

I have it in an e-mail version, with pictures, if you want to PM me your e-mail address.
 

G8r4evr

New member
I think it is just such a "new" idea. I mean it isn't new to us because we sit and chat about car seats all day but the average parent just really hasn't heard anything. A year and 20 lbs had been drilled into people's heads so long that that is what they think of. I also think it really helps if they hear about it over and over again. Sure we can tell a parent at a check about it but it would be so nice if they hear it other places as well.

I drilled ERF hard into the parents today at the check, it was kind of hard to judge if they will listen or not, I hope so.

I really think that in most instances it is lack of information. Had I not found this board a few short months ago, I would have turned my DD FF ON her 1 year birthday, because I had no idea that was not the right thing to do. You hear 1 yr 20 lbs over and over, so you just begin to believe it.

I was talking to my sister in law yestederday, telling her how much I wanted a Nautilus, but couldnt have one because I want to keep DD RF facing for as long as possible. She said "yeah, we kept Logan (my nephew) RF for as long as we could too. I said when did you turn him around and she said 11 MONTHS. I about fell off the couch. Granted, he is a very big boy, so Im sure that they thought once his feet were touching the seat, he needed to turn. Im sure that had she known about the benefits ERF, they would have left him RFing much longer.
 

NannyMom

Well-known member
My best friend keeps her 20 month old DD FF because "she likes it so much". At least she let me show her how to fix the install, and move it to the center. My other friend keeps her 20 months old DD FF because they've been in 2 crashes (another car hit them from behind)...the most recent of which DD was FF and no injuries at all....so...why RF? :rolleyes: My cousin keeps her DD FF because "I like to see her smiling face in the mirror". I know the seat's not tethered. I'll have to send a very good email to my uncle about having the car retrofitted (he sends all the info to my cousin).

If theycan FF at 12/20...then it must be safe enough...right?
*note....this is NOT how I feel....but the reasoning they use.....

At least my boss is agreeing to keep the unborn baby ERF :)
 

rodentranger

New member
It really doesn't help when the peds' office tells you you can turn them around at 12/20, and if you don't (ie my 27 lb 23 mo old is still RF), they look at you funny and say, "You do know you can turn him around, right?"
 

ketchupqueen

CPST and ketchup snob
Staff member
Personally, I think it's that they don't believe. They don't believe they'll ever be in a serious accident. They don't believe manufacturers would recommend anything unsafe. And they don't believe RF vs. FF vs. Booters have any significant differences in safety. They believe a car seat is a car seat and that's good enough.

I think this is a big part of it for a lot of people.

And a big reason why I DO buy into it, is that I don't have that "it won't happen to me" attitude. My husband has been in 4 serious accidents in the 5 years we've been married, 2 of them with at least one kid in the car, 3 of them unavoidable and not at all his fault (one only partly his fault-- that is, he was at fault but bad road conditions were mostly to blame.) And I've been hit twice while in friends' cars, once with my child with me. It CAN happen to ANYONE at ANY TIME and I know this. But if you've been on the other end of the statistical spectrum, never had an accident, it's easy to think, "Oh, I'm a good driver, it will never happen" (even though it does happen to excellent drivers, like my husband, all the time.)
 

fyrfightermomma

New member
Ego? Not wanting to admit you may not be doing something as safe as you could? (so you instantly go into defense mode)

My daughter was FF at 11 months and 17 lbs. The doc said she was "close enough." So I turned her MA FFing then.

She was about 15 months and I was 7 months pregnant looking for a new infant bucket when I came across this site.

I of course put my daughter's stats in my signature-all 19 pounds of her. I was instantly bombarded with links/videos/posts etc about how I should have her RFing.

I figured, I am a trauma nurse. I am a firefighter. I know what I am doing. I am doing what is "best" for my child and I don't care what others say.

I instantly got defensive and that closed any door to me being open to suggestions. Once they are defensive, most people don't listen.

I never came back to this site until my chubby baby was too big for her carrier way too early and I NEEDED suggestions. I kept my siggy to myself this time and was a lurker.

The more I read, the more I actually LOOKED at the links and videos I started to realize I had been wrong. My daughter was turned back RFing at
2y3m and 21 lbs. My youngest at almost 2 has never ridden FFing.

For me, it was ego. I was the mom and I knew best. Someone TELLING me what to do didn't work with me. I had to sit and figure it out on my own. Once no one was telling me, I became open to it.

I googled it on my own.

I won't preach to people. I know it can backfire. So I made up a new way to get the message across. I tell them to just google "extended rear facing" and read for 10 minutes. That's it. When they can present me with a few documents supporting their point of view (that it isn't important) I will be more than happy to change my point of view and agree with them.

I always use this method now and shared it with others on here and I know people use that now (it's even on a brochure floating around now) It really works. No one is telling them what to do, and they soon realize that almost NOTHING exists stating ERFing is not important.

So that's my story.
 
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luv2bfishin

New member
Hi Grandpa here! Maybe you missed my blog re: my grandson, Joel, and how he BROKE HIS NECK in a front facing car seat!

here it is: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=59783 You need to see the photo's!

Sure, people have told me all the reasons not to do ERF.

such as: But I can't see their face? (response: would you rather see their face in a halo? or paralyzed?

or, i like this one......"they don't like it"? well, what if your child doesn't like to bathe, or wants to drink soda instead of mild? are you gonna do that to??

and the infamous line.......their legs are pushed against the back seat, and may get broken in an accident? response: what would you rather be broken? an akle or a leg....or their neck!

Problem in good ol USA is the RF seats only go up to 35lbs. Check out rf car seats in Sweden....they are built to hold kids up to 55 lbs...4 yrs old! Thats waht we need to get here!! BIGGER RF SEATS

Keep in mind, my grandson was 18 mos and 33 lbs! a younger, smaller child probably would not have made it. Young children front facing have a 75% greater risk of injury that RF.

keep your eye out for Joel's video on this subject....maybe within the coming week!
 

morninglori

New member
Thanks for everyone's responses...

Thanks Grandpa too...I have read your grandson's story and do try to insert his story into the conversations, about how he was FF, and a big boy, it was a front crash at only 35mph and his head separated from his neck and was only held by skin, how the harness straps cause nerve damage in his arms, etc...but I get the "in our area we are more likely to get rear ended" so RF isn't the safest in that situation. (in a rear end accident, isn't someone having a frontal collision at the same time? :confused:It boggles my mind sometimes)

I do walk a fine line in my discussions. It gets too close to them thinking I am the crazy car seat friend that reads to much and should just mind their own business, so I end up not being able to really talk seriously and a a reasonable depth about it.

I think that fyrefightermama hit it right on the head...ego. I really like your suggestions and if ever the topic and the right situation comes up, I will just tell them to google and read for 10 minutes.

It will be curious what my ped says at my DS 1year checkup next week...I wonder if she will tell me to FF DS. I think I will bring a printout of Grandpa's story just in case.

Oh and the one stupid excuse I get - and hate the most is "I never rode in a car seat, and I am fine."

Thanks everyone
 

Judi

CPST/Firefighter
I never rode in one either. When people say that, I ask if they were ever in a crash. 99% of the time, they say no, and stop for a second to think.
 

Jan06twinmom

New member
morninglori -

Here's an article that I really like about the research about extended rear-facing....
http://www.fortwayne.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/SE/20071210/NEWS/712100332

I think it's definitely one worth printing out and sharing. Instead of telling people about erf, you can just share the article and say, "I thought you might be interested in this article about car seats. Then you can also tell them that if they want to learn more, they can do a search on the web.
 
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U

Unregistered

Guest
When you see your Ped Doctor next week, just as ask him "what is the most CURRENT recommendation from AAP?" He'll probably have to look it up. It is very different from the first release in 1996.

In 1996, AAP said " Children should face the rear of the vehicle until they are at least 1 year of age and weigh at least 20 lb to decrease the risk of cervical spine injury in the event of a crash. Infants who weigh 20 lb before 1 year of age should ride rear facing in a convertible seat or infant seat approved for higher weights until at least 1 year of age"

In 2002, AAP REVISED the statement to add: " If a car safety seat accommodates children rear facing to higher weights, for optimal protection, the child should remain rear facing until reaching the maximum weight for the car safety seat, as long as the top of the head is below the top of the seat back. (Weber, 2002) "

They have also added........ " Parents look to pediatricians for up-to-date, accurate information on selecting and properly using car safety seats. New products that address gaps in restraint protection are continually being developed. Manufacturers should be encouraged to develop car safety seats that accommodate children rear facing to 4 years of age (45 lb). It is important that pediatricians keep abreast of innovations in child passenger safety."

Hmmm, Excuse me, but did that say up to 4 years of age???

You may also want to ask him " at what age is a childs neck muscles, or spine, able to withstand the force of a front facing car crash without chance of serious injury?" I'd be VERY interested, and grateful, for THAT answer!!


Do you see a trend toward RF here? Seems so to me! Let us know the "up-to-date" response you get from your Pediatrician.

As a matter of fact....let's hear from EVERYONE out there about what the pediatricians are saying these days.......

Personally, I think most of the people reading these forums are more up to speed on car seat safety than the Ped Doctors!
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
Personally, I think it's that they don't believe. They don't believe they'll ever be in a serious accident. They don't believe manufacturers would recommend anything unsafe. And they don't believe RF vs. FF vs. Booters have any significant differences in safety. They believe a car seat is a car seat and that's good enough.


The vast majority of the time, this is correct. This is also why people honestly believe that it doesn't matter HOW you use the seat.

It really doesn't help when the peds' office tells you you can turn them around at 12/20, and if you don't (ie my 27 lb 23 mo old is still RF), they look at you funny and say, "You do know you can turn him around, right?"

Very true!

Ego? Not wanting to admit you may not be doing something as safe as you could? (so you instantly go into defense mode)

Again, very much the case.
 

Hollyob

New member
morninglori -

Here's an article that I really like about the research about extended rear-facing....
http://www.fortwayne.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/SE/20071210/NEWS/712100332

I just printed this out b/c I want to carry some ERF info in my car, and this sentence stood out: Children in rear-facing seats are more likely to sustain injuries to their extremities, which Bull (the researcher) said are more reparable and usually less likely to have lifelong consequences.

What gives? Do you suppose she is referring to undocumented cases?? Since this is a newspaper article, no reference list is given...
 

The Bjorns

New member
people honestly believe that it doesn't matter HOW you use the seat.
I think this is largely true. Even my mother has become aware of car seat safety thanks to my "nuttiness" and she saw a horrid example of misuse in a parking lot yesterday. A young couple was coming out of Home Depot obviously tired with a cranky boy (about the size of my 1 yr old) and the mother just put him in the seat without buckling and off they drove. :eek: I don't remember if mom said it was FF or RF.

Even on those rotten Fox News videos (American Family segments hosted by E.D. Hill) the host is clueless about seat use--putting the shoulder strap behind a too young child, etc.


I think ego is largely to blame--people get defensive and then don't want to hear any information. Most parents would move mountains for their DCs and to be told you're endangering them by doing something EVERYONE else is doing is hard to hear. They buy a good car seat and use it just like everyone else so what's wrong? Since they bought the expensive brand of seat it must be better than the cheaper seat so it must be safer, right? And since theirs is the safest seat, why should they do something counterintuitive like RFing?

I try not to preach and just share what I'm doing and why, but it's hard. One lady at work is so proud that she would never place her DDs booster outboard because center is so much safer, yet her DD was riding in a booster way too soon (probably when she was under 4 and she's a lightweight!). My neighbor's son (just turned 6) has been in no back booster for ages and he's ADD/HD and no where near mature enough to sit properly in a booster.

Sigh. I know we all want to change the the world and keep children safe and it's so frustrating when we see situations where the right information could make all the difference and we just can't get the information to fall on receptive ears. Keep trying and I guess we should all remember the old adage about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar.
 

laccaycol

Active member
I have a feeling that once Joel's story gets out on youtube it will have the KDM effect. Then there will be more of a demand for higher limit RF car seats. Well, i might be dreaming but you never know.:)
 

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