Question What's your opinion of no safety options on Metro buses?

OK, I'm hoping this is the right forum to be asking this question, if not, feel free to move it or tell me. I also hope this won't be too controversial, but I really need your guys expertise and help on this one.

As some of you have read from a different post, I don't drive (or have a car). Nor do I want one. (Not just for money issues, but also for the environment, etc.)

In the spring, summer, and fall, I bike with my son in our Burley solo trailer. (Love it! )

BUT in the winter, here in Minneapolis, MN, I occasionally HAVE to take a bus to get longer-distances (like to St. Paul for the Children's Museum).

The problem I have is the MN DOT/Metro Transit policy regarding child safety.

They insist that a parent MUST take their child OUT of any stroller or trailer with a harness, and carry the child on their lap.

At first, I wasn't too worried about this, and I wrap him usually so it's not been a big deal for me.

But as he get's bigger, he doesn't want to be in the wrap, and/or I have so much stuff that I need to have the stroller with. Anyhow, that doesn't really matter.

What matters to me is that the kids on these buses are completely unrestrained. Bus accidents DO happen - I've been on one. I've also been in 5 car/truck accidents, both as passenger (3x) and as driver (2x), so I know what it's like.

There's no way that if the bus should even have to lurch to a stop, possibly rear-ending someone or hitting a driver taking a right in front of them (which is what happened to me), that a passenger holding a child, could also hold onto something to brace themselves. If the bus ROLLED, for instance, the child would go flying. (not to mention all the adults)

Again, I know that bus accidents are less than car accidents, but for the ONE time it happens to you, statistics don't really matter. It's still possible.

What I figured out recently, was that I could restrain my child's stroller so he's rear-facing using the handicap seatbelts and hooks through the wheels and bottom legs of the stroller. And with my son in the 5-point harness in the stroller (which unfortunately is not as safe as in a car seat or trailer harness since the 3-point does not cover his sternum), I figure it's still safer than NOTHING at all until I figure something else out.

If we rolled, he would at least be hanging upside down attached to the stroller attached to the bus, instead of flying all over the bus whacking all those poles.

If something came flying at him, he'd at least have SOME measure of a cage around him to give him a tiny bit of protection.

Also, if there are strollers on the bus unrestrained, I'd certainly hate to have one of those flying at me during an accident.

Obviously, it's not what I'm suggesting for any type of long-term solution, but the fact that our main source of public transportation has no measure of safety for children is quite maddening to me, really.

I'd like to see either some type of new invention of a carseat/stroller combo, or new stroller that could be locked into set places on the bus, just like wheelchairs can be - that's designed and tested for this, of course.

Or chairs facing the back with harnesses and restraints built in... or SOMETHING! It's not exactly like the bus system doesn't expect kids on the bus.

What I'm curious to hear from you guys is:
1. Do you think I'm making too big a deal out of this?
2. Does anyone know the statistics for bus accidents, esp. as it relates to children?
3. What would you suggest - either for a new policy/safety designs or just how I should deal with safety should I be unable to get MNDOT to change their policy.

What do you think??? I think the video/story that was just posted in the other thread about the school bus and fuel tanker go a long way toward showing the difference having a child restrained makes. :twocents:

at0micgirl said:

What I'm curious to hear from you guys is:[/B]
1. Do you think I'm making too big a deal out of this?
2. Does anyone know the statistics for bus accidents, esp. as it relates to children?
3. What would you suggest - either for a new policy/safety designs or just how I should deal with safety should I be unable to get MNDOT to change their policy.

What do you think??? I think the video/story that was just posted in the other thread about the school bus and fuel tanker go a long way toward showing the difference having a child restrained makes. :twocents:

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I think it is a big safety risk, but I don't think there is a whole lot you can do. We can try and get policies changed, but that also requires getting the busses changed to meet these new regulations. Both aspects of this take a lot of time and money. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I really don't think there is much you can do aside from limiting how much you have to use the bus. I see it as a trade off of public transportation

Did you get the radian pictures I sent you via PM the other day?

I heard from a friend in the Netherlands (where it's mostly bikes and public transport) that when her son was small they had a vest that buckled around the back of the bus seat, under the bottom, and to itself to hold him in. I wonder if that is still sold or is safe?

This is just a theory, but I would imagine that it is statistically safer to ride on a bus WITHOUT restraints, than to ride in a car WITH restraints. Buses just get into fewer accidents, and the accidents tend to be less severe.

I grew up riding buses, and yes, there were a few fast stops or bumpy roads that would have made it difficult to hold onto a child, but nothing that would have seriously injurred or killed an unrestrained child (or adult, for that matter).

Can you take a train/light rail at all? I would imagine it is an even safer form of travel, and I've always been able to roll my DD's stroller right on.

ketchupqueen said:

I heard from a friend in the Netherlands (where it's mostly bikes and public transport) that when her son was small they had a vest that buckled around the back of the bus seat, under the bottom, and to itself to hold him in. I wonder if that is still sold or is safe?

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Wow, that's really cool. I bet there's some way to do that safely. I've never heard of it, but I'll stash the idea while I work with Metro Transit to improve their safety options.

Hey, I finally replied to your other thread

I really don't worry too much about it & I grew up around child survivors of crashes who suffered permanent disabling injuries. I do have a bit of PTSD about that, but I also do believe buses are safer than our fear tells us

I don't have stats on city buses, but IIRC buses in general (maybe only school buses) are about 8 times less likely to crash than family vehicles. & when they do, it's usually very minor. We only hear about the major catastrophes because they're news worthy :twocents: The sheer size & design of buses make them relatively immune to the crash forces that a family vehicle suffers. Plus, the drivers are trained & held accountable for maintaining their training.

I also believe it's always a good idea to write your representatives to urge safer policies -- you might appreciate these bus restraint systems ... currently used only on school buses, although I have hopes that one day they'll be good for city buses, too (just like city buses didn't used to have mechanisms to hold wheel chairs in place like they now have)

Speaking of wheel chairs on buses: the front seats of most of my local buses have nonlocking retractable lap belts for anyone to use.

ketchupqueen said:

I heard from a friend in the Netherlands (where it's mostly bikes and public transport) that when her son was small they had a vest that buckled around the back of the bus seat, under the bottom, and to itself to hold him in. I wonder if that is still sold or is safe?

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How about duct tape?

The only time we've taken public transportation was when we went to Disney last year. We took the Disney buses everywhere we needed to go and didn't give a 2nd thought to it. My kids the time were 4, almost 3 (though the size of a newly 2yo), and 10 mos. The only problem we had was that Evan freaked out when we got back in a car and he had to use a carseat again. Statistically buses are the safest transportation on the road, they are large and the chances of a roll over in town I think are very minute.

What Papooses posted looked a lot like how my friend described what they had for her son.

(And I would happily pay extra for a bus ticket for my kids if they were allowed to wear those! Man, think of how much easier that would be! No trying to stand up, no messing around with other peoples' stuff...)

You said that your buses have seatbelts in the handicap seats? Are those 'single' seats, like an airplane seat, or a bench? If it's a single seat, and your budget allows, you might be able to use a CARES harness (designed for planes). It has a belt that slides over the seat and tightens, the harness goes over the child's shoulders and the bottom 2 pieces of the harness slide through the seat belt. The over-the-seat belt wouldn't be quite as tight as on an airplane seat since I'm assuming your city bus has molded plastic type seats. It's easy and quick to install, though. And, of course, it would depend on the availability of a handicap seat. Maybe worth investigating?

I can totally see why you'd be concerned. While statistically school buses are safer, and perhaps all buses in general, there's not alot of info out there. And having just traveled with ds on Disney transport (=city) buses I hear you about not being able to hold onto everything at once!

CTPDMom said:

You said that your buses have seatbelts in the handicap seats? Are those 'single' seats, like an airplane seat, or a bench? If it's a single seat, and your budget allows, you might be able to use a CARES harness (designed for planes). It has a belt that slides over the seat and tightens, the harness goes over the child's shoulders and the bottom 2 pieces of the harness slide through the seat belt. The over-the-seat belt wouldn't be quite as tight as on an airplane seat since I'm assuming your city bus has molded plastic type seats. It's easy and quick to install, though. And, of course, it would depend on the availability of a handicap seat. Maybe worth investigating?

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On the buses where I live, the retractable nonlocking lap belts are on typical 2 person benches. I haven't seen a CARES up close to know how it might work in that situation.

papooses said:

On the buses where I live, the retractable nonlocking lap belts are on typical 2 person benches. I haven't seen a CARES up close to know how it might work in that situation.

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On a 2 person bench back it wouldn't work, wouldn't be long enough to go around the entire thing.

There's a good pic of it on their main page:
http://www.kidsflysafe.com/?gclid=COrXiMbez5YCFQQrFQodtg983Q

The orange strap is what I'm talking about.

I don't think a stroller or its harness is strong enough at all to take any sort of crash forces, so it seems to me all you'd really have is a cloth and metal contraption possibly entangling the child. I couldn't guess if you're better off holding the child (or trying to hold the child), but I wouldn't consider being strapped into a stroller while on the bus particular safe.

I think one trick about buses is that they're so heavy that they take a long time to stop, generally outweighing whatever they're colliding with, so the decelleration is less than typically seen in a car, so passengers are thrown around less. I hope.

I would not consider a stroller a child restraint device (since it's not attached to the vehicle) and could possibly cause MORE injury since it's cheap plastic that could break of in case of collision...

Public buses are very safe - as the above posters said, there is evidence thay riding unrestrained in a bus is safer than being restrained in a car.