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  1. #41
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post
    Because the Radian is useless rf'ing in my truck due to insufficient recline without the rf'ing tether, so I'd have no choice but to tether it rf'ing if I wanted to use it that way...
    Wait! Did I get that right? Your Radian is too upright? Which car do you have? I'm thinking some really really slopped seats....
    DD 5.5yo, 38lbs, 43" - FF in a Radian XT and Frontier85 SICT
    DS 3yo, 33lbs, 38" - RF in Radian XT and Britax MT

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  3. #42
    Moderator - CPS Technician safeinthecar's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    I'm not sure the ARB wouldn't help with a side impact actually. As the seat pivots toward the POI the ARB would dig into the seat back somewhat. In theory anyway. Plus, I do have to say that the ARB True Fit installed as least as solidly as a RFing tethered Britax. I couldn't move the head area of the seat side to side at all.
    Kimberly
    Proud mommy of Becky 18! Danny 15 Hope 12~Auntie to William-14, David-10, and Logan 2~

  4. #43
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by minismom View Post
    Wait! Did I get that right? Your Radian is too upright? Which car do you have? I'm thinking some really really slopped seats....
    Saturn Outlook - and yeah, I wouldn't be able to get a newborn recline even with tightening the tether as much as possible - I actually got in the seat and leaned on the top of the shell & tightened the tether that way for maximum recline, but it was barely enough for ds at 10mos & wasn't enough for me to be happy with it. It's the way that the foot slides down into the seat bite combined with them being sloped. Without the tether it's just too upright.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  5. #44
    CPS Advocate Kat_Momof3's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    crunchier - as usual, you have amazing info.

    I hadn't thought about side crashes, either.

    I should have known... I was thinking last night when I went to bed that, wait a minute... Sweden has had rearfacing tethers for HOW long?? And they haven't gone to rebound bars like Australia, which has a history of being kind of behind.

    Not that the rebound bar is bad... I think it's better for the younger rearfacers, but that is such a small window (under 4-6mo)... I think the tether is still better long term. We just need a better way to get it tethered, more similar to a universal way like in Sweden, where every vehicle would have it done the same way.



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  6. #45
    CPS Technician CDNTech's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat_Momof3 View Post
    We just need a better way to get it tethered, more similar to a universal way like in Sweden, where every vehicle would have it done the same way.
    From my understanding... Sweden's 'universal' way of tethering is two separate d-rings wrapped around the vehicle seat legs. The two separate RFing tethers attach to these d-rings. Sounds pretty identical to what we have here.

    I have to think that vehicle manufacturer's are not going to great lengths to test these RFing child restraints in their vehicles in Sweden and they are instead concentrating on making the vehicles safer as the years go by, period.

    If they do *not* test their vehicles with child restraints installed (ie. they use a test bench), then why all the hype for us (Canada specifically, but this relates to the USA as well) to test ours? Clearly their track record with child restraints and RFing tethers shows no concern.

    I'd like to know if anyone knows *specifically* whether Sweden vehicle manufacturer's do something different when assembling their vehicles. Since their RFing d-rings hold their seats just fine, why would ours not? Basically... Are their any differences in the vehicles seat assembly?

    I'm also totally confused on Compass/First Years stand on RFing tethering. When the True Fit first came out, the company was *adamant* that the seat could not RF tether because (in the company's words), the seat *needs* to cocoon. Not they *want* it to cocoon, but that it *needs* to cocoon.

    Now they come out with the ARB feature and are totally fine with limiting that cocooning? I just don't get the sudden change in their stance?
    Jen, Former CDN CRS Tech
    DS1 /02, Seatbelt in the driver's seat now!
    DS2 /05, Seatbelt

    DS3 /12, Britax Frontier/Parkway SG
    DD1 /15, Rfing Peg PVC

  7. #46
    CPS Technician capeKO71's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by canadiancarseatqueen View Post
    It's interesting isn't it?

    For all we know, they just wanted to be different. The first North American mainstream car seat manufacturer to offer an anti-rebound bar on a convertible (as opposed to allowing for rf tethering).
    But they weren't... we're all forgetting about the Britax gallaxy... my first convertible... loved that thing... if only it went up to 65lbs... it was an awesome seat.
    Kate - Mom to 2 boys! - CPST

    It's off! Yipee!

  8. #47
    Moderator - CPST Instructor snowbird25ca's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by CDNTech View Post
    From my understanding... Sweden's 'universal' way of tethering is two separate d-rings wrapped around the vehicle seat legs. The two separate RFing tethers attach to these d-rings. Sounds pretty identical to what we have here.


    I'm also totally confused on Compass/First Years stand on RFing tethering. When the True Fit first came out, the company was *adamant* that the seat could not RF tether because (in the company's words), the seat *needs* to cocoon. Not they *want* it to cocoon, but that it *needs* to cocoon.

    Now they come out with the ARB feature and are totally fine with limiting that cocooning? I just don't get the sudden change in their stance?
    I think the key may be in your last question - the ARF limits the cocooning as opposed to preventing it completely. And I still have to think that some of the discussion of cocooning comes from trying to prevent parents from trying to tether the seat rf'ing. I know I see enough parents trying to rf tether their 3in1 seats that I can certainly understand them wanting to be clear about that.

    There's a thread in the CDN/International forum that shows how to rf tether a swedish seat. It's actually tethered using some of the seat structure itself, not specifically the seat track - at least in the case of the seat shown. As to whether that affects the forces, I can't speculate. And I also can't really speculate as to how much the force being distributed between the two tethers makes a difference. All I do know is that without country specific information we can't assume that because they do it there there's no risk here. It sucks that it takes government regulations to test things like this here in North America though.
    Trudy - Canadian CPSAC certified CRST Instructor-Trainer and mommy to:
    Janeen - 17 yrs and learning to drive!
    Jillian - 11 yrs, 80'ish lbs, 5-stepping in each car. :O
    Jonas - 8yrs, 65lbs, Riding in an Oobr in each car.
    Both safely riding in either a 2007 Outlook or a 2015 Subaru Legacy depending on the day.


  9. #48
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    I think true fit's reasoning is that the ARB allows the seat to cocoon somewhat so that the child's head is not the only thing going in that direction, which seems to be the main point of concern of the RF tether, specially for smaller kids. So I think it makes sense what they did based on what they said before. I dont think they were saying the seat had to cocoon all the way, just that it couldnt be stuck. For my own seat I dont crank the tether as much as I would and I hope that between that and the fact that the tether stretches dd will be ok during rebound. I think the benefit in side impact is worth it. I wish I could see a video of a side impact with the ARB. If I can see what it does I might feel ok getting a true fit, since it has a nice tall shell that would last longer than a Britax.

    Now, I dont get the whole issue with the tether point. I get it that maybe the manufacturer doesnt wanna go tell parents to find a point themselves and maybe be liable for what happens, but what's the real downside in tethering your own seat? You try to find something that's bolted to the vehicle's frame and if it turns out that it wasnt and it wont hold in a crash then so what? Isnt that the same rationale behind using FF tethers over the weight limit?
    DD 5.5yo, 38lbs, 43" - FF in a Radian XT and Frontier85 SICT
    DS 3yo, 33lbs, 38" - RF in Radian XT and Britax MT

  10. #49
    CPS Technician CDNTech's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post
    There's a thread in the CDN/International forum that shows how to rf tether a swedish seat.
    Do you happen to have a link to this? I'm terrible at searching and would love to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by minismom View Post
    ...the fact that the tether stretches, dd will be ok during rebound...

    You try to find something that's bolted to the vehicle's frame and if it turns out that it wasnt and it wont hold in a crash then so what? Isnt that the same rationale behind using FF tethers over the weight limit?
    These sentences made me stop and think...

    Britax has recently changed their tethers to add the rip-stitch... which does allow extra give and ride down time for FFing collisions. If the rip stitch is going to give in a FFing collision, it should also be giving in a RFing collision. Which means it's not a hard jolt as some are thinking, but more along the lines of a softer stop... perhaps similar to the anti-rebound bar on the True Fit.

    It'd be nice to see an update (using the new rip-stitch tether) on the head excursion study showing that the neck loads, while increased, were still within limits. I wonder how the new rip-stitch tether affects those limits... perhaps they are even better now and this worrying over newborns being RF tethered are slightly unwarranted (at least in the Britax seats)?
    Jen, Former CDN CRS Tech
    DS1 /02, Seatbelt in the driver's seat now!
    DS2 /05, Seatbelt

    DS3 /12, Britax Frontier/Parkway SG
    DD1 /15, Rfing Peg PVC

  11. #50
    CPS Technician CDNTech's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by snowbird25ca View Post
    There's a thread in the CDN/International forum that shows how to rf tether a swedish seat. It's actually tethered using some of the seat structure itself, not specifically the seat track - at least in the case of the seat shown.
    I found a thread, but the pictures are removed (guess I'm not quite as bad at searching as I thought. ). I did find in my search Bonnie's (CRS) review of the Zento.

    Other than the fact that they have two anchor points (vs. our one), they are using the same points to wrap their d-ring as we are (metal structure bolted to the vehicle). The difference is that they are also allowed to wrap their (much longer) d-ring around the hinge of the vehicle seat and use that as a (second choice) different method.

    From posts by Adventuredad, it would seem that Swedish vehicles are not re-inforced or manufactured any differently than North American vehicles... which only makes sense as that would cost the vehicle manufacturer even more. However, without going through their actual documents to see the differences, I can't be certain they are the same.

    Until TC comes out with solid data (ie. proof) specifically prohibiting RF tethering, I don't have a single concern with continuing to teach and recommend that parents RF tether their seats *provided* they have a seat that has the ability to RF tether and they are following manufacturer recommendations.

    I know someone will be along to point out that no vehicle tells you how to wrap your d-ring, ect., ect... Can anyone tell me if *Swedish vehicles* have instructions in them for RF tethering? Or is it just the child restraint manufacturer's over there explaining/teaching parents how to use their d-ring?

    I'm just wondering if this is an issue where vehicle manufacturer's don't get involved, period. I mean, no vehicle manufacturer crash tests their vehicles with child restraints in them, in every configuration... yet we have no issues with using these child restraints in these vehicles. I know we test them on a sled bench and assume they will perform pretty much the same in a vehicle, but a test sled bench is *very* different than a vehicle.

    Just more food for thought.
    Jen, Former CDN CRS Tech
    DS1 /02, Seatbelt in the driver's seat now!
    DS2 /05, Seatbelt

    DS3 /12, Britax Frontier/Parkway SG
    DD1 /15, Rfing Peg PVC

  12. #51
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    My Volvo bought in the US has tether points for RF (2 under each front seat), but the manual doenst mention them at all. The manual has a big session on child restraints, talks about latch and FF tether points and has a huge warning that says volvo recommends kids stay RFing til 4yo and explains why. Kinda what made me fell in love! They could have removed the mention to the RF tether from the US versions cause most seats here dont tether. That's kind of what I think.
    DD 5.5yo, 38lbs, 43" - FF in a Radian XT and Frontier85 SICT
    DS 3yo, 33lbs, 38" - RF in Radian XT and Britax MT

  13. #52
    CPS Advocate Kat_Momof3's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    What I meant by universal is... have it as a feature on all seats... and have the way to do it be outlined so well in the manual to give options that are clear and easy...

    the option of wrapping it around the actual vehicle seat is one that we don't have here, for instance... but that's the design of the tethers.

    we wouldn't have to redesign the tethers, though... if all seats had the feature, the vehicle manufacturers would (as they did with ff anchors) step up and provide rf anchors.



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  14. #53
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by crunchierthanthou View Post
    I disagree. According to a study by the U of Va, the main benefit of the rf tether is in side impacts, which we know are the most dangerous types of crashes. The additional neck loading in front impacts with a tethered seat is well within accepted limits and FTMP is balanced by slight improvement in safety in that type of crash.

    IMO, the rf tether really doesn’t matter when it comes to front or rear impacts. Sure, intuitively you don’t want to see the kid’s head smack into the back of the seat (or glass), but there’s not much in the way of hard data to back that up. It’s mostly a theoretical concern and we know that seats that rebound/cocoon are safe too.

    I do see the ARF as a good thing- as anything that is absorbing crash forces would be. But is it really addressing a true safety concern? It prevents rebound with less neck strain than Swedish style tethering and that’s good. However, the data shows that the neck loading in a tethered seat really isn’t much of a danger (nor is the rebounding that it's preventing). However, using a tether improves performance in the more dangerous side impacts, for which I can't see the ARF doing a whole lot.

    You do not want a child´s head to hit the car interior at all. . A strike can easierly result in head trauma. That´s what the anti rebound bars and tethers are for.

    Lena
    Fancy a Sitbag?
    Model: Mathias. Car seat: Britax Multi-Tech

  15. #54
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by CDNTech View Post
    From my understanding... Sweden's 'universal' way of tethering is two separate d-rings wrapped around the vehicle seat legs. The two separate RFing tethers attach to these d-rings. Sounds pretty identical to what we have here.

    I have to think that vehicle manufacturer's are not going to great lengths to test these RFing child restraints in their vehicles in Sweden and they are instead concentrating on making the vehicles safer as the years go by, period.

    If they do *not* test their vehicles with child restraints installed (ie. they use a test bench), then why all the hype for us (Canada specifically, but this relates to the USA as well) to test ours? Clearly their track record with child restraints and RFing tethers shows no concern.

    I'd like to know if anyone knows *specifically* whether Sweden vehicle manufacturer's do something different when assembling their vehicles. Since their RFing d-rings hold their seats just fine, why would ours not? Basically... Are their any differences in the vehicles seat assembly?

    I'm also totally confused on Compass/First Years stand on RFing tethering. When the True Fit first came out, the company was *adamant* that the seat could not RF tether because (in the company's words), the seat *needs* to cocoon. Not they *want* it to cocoon, but that it *needs* to cocoon.

    Now they come out with the ARB feature and are totally fine with limiting that cocooning? I just don't get the sudden change in their stance?
    The Swedish high weight RF car seats are very different to the US seats like the Marathon and even this new seat with ARB.

    They are indeed tethered twice towards the front of the car and some of them have the ARB at the front of the seat just like this new seat coming out. BUT they also have a large steel leg that goes from the back of the seat to the floor. This is to improve the seats´ performance in rear impacts, side impacts and frontal impact crashes. the two tethers help the steel leg - known as a "foot prop" do its´ job. Both features also help the seat keeping a larger child safe in the seat.

    Only ONE swedish car seat comes with the US type D-ring, and that seat is the Brio Zento

    Britax Multitech foot prop:







    For the record: The foot prop is not fully installed. It has not locked (red indicator) nor is it at the exact right angle.

    Lena
    Fancy a Sitbag?
    Model: Mathias. Car seat: Britax Multi-Tech

  16. #55
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Anyone know what the HIC is on the current model True Fit without the anti rebound device?

    Quote Originally Posted by featherhead View Post
    Sounds really nice. Wonder when we'll get it in Canada
    What is HIC?

  17. #56
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    OH MY...clearly this thread became one that I should NOT be reading. It is way too technical for me to understand? Can someone simplify for me? I JUST got a True Fit? What is cocooning? Should I be concerned that there is no rear tether or anti rebound foot in this one? There is NO way I can afford the newer one with the foot when it comes out unless someone will pay what I paid for this one I have, and I'm sure there's no way to do that. Help! I'm becoming wayyy paranoid. My step-sister was just in a horrible accident with her 2 daugthers, one of whom had to be life-flighted.

  18. #57
    Senior Community Member SPJ&E's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by 4BabyUnit View Post
    OH MY...clearly this thread became one that I should NOT be reading. It is way too technical for me to understand? Can someone simplify for me? I JUST got a True Fit? What is cocooning? Should I be concerned that there is no rear tether or anti rebound foot in this one? There is NO way I can afford the newer one with the foot when it comes out unless someone will pay what I paid for this one I have, and I'm sure there's no way to do that. Help! I'm becoming wayyy paranoid. My step-sister was just in a horrible accident with her 2 daugthers, one of whom had to be life-flighted.
    Cocooning is when a rear-facing seat moves up toward the seatback in a crash. It is acceptable and happens with any rear-facing seat that does not have a top tether or anti-rebound bar. Try not to be too concerned, it really is okay. Rear-facing is already so safe as it is, anything else (like a RF tether) is just icing on the cake, so to speak. A RF tether or anti-rebound bar will make it safER, but the seat is still safe without.

    The most important thing is that you install and use the seat correctly each and every time.
    Mom to P (9), J (almost 8), & E (2.5)

  19. #58
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Quote Originally Posted by 4BabyUnit View Post
    OH MY...clearly this thread became one that I should NOT be reading. It is way too technical for me to understand? Can someone simplify for me? I JUST got a True Fit? What is cocooning? Should I be concerned that there is no rear tether or anti rebound foot in this one? There is NO way I can afford the newer one with the foot when it comes out unless someone will pay what I paid for this one I have, and I'm sure there's no way to do that. Help! I'm becoming wayyy paranoid. My step-sister was just in a horrible accident with her 2 daugthers, one of whom had to be life-flighted.
    The PP has already explained cocooning. And I totally agree, don't worry about it. Many veteran members here, including lots of techs, use RF seats that have no RF tether or rebound bar and feel very comfortable doing it. Only Britax seats and the Radian allow for RF tethering and the TF will be the first convertible to have an anti rebound bar, and sometimes parents have other reasons for buying another brand of seat that are more important, like fit in your vehicle, fit for your child etc. The TF is a seat many here use and love btw.
    The most important thing you can do to keep your child safe is keep him/her RF for as long as his within the RF limits of the TF. RF is much safer than FF. Also make sure to install the seat tight, with less than 1" movement side to side, following all the instructions. Also make sure the harness is always snug and the chest clip is at armpit level. Feel free to ask here if you have any more questions!
    DD 5.5yo, 38lbs, 43" - FF in a Radian XT and Frontier85 SICT
    DS 3yo, 33lbs, 38" - RF in Radian XT and Britax MT

  20. #59
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    Ooooh, I like that new gray color seat pattern with the circles on it. Looks neat-O....I agree the seats looks odd to me, but I still like it.

    So January 09'??? Evan can wait Im sure!!

    THanks for the info!
    ~Evan~ 2 years old months old~ERF in a Graco MyRide!!

  21. #60
    CPS Technician cadensmommy's Avatar
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    Re: Pics of the Trufit with anti-rebound foot

    does anyone know if we can preorder this seat?
    Clarissa -Mommy to Caden June 29 04 64# in moterey, Clara Oct 19 2007 32#ff in recaro prosport, Chloe Jan 14 2009 36# ff in radian Ceagan Feb 23 2010! 29# in a TFP

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