Moving to France

ilovethesun

New member
Hi,

I am moving to France in the next couple of months from the US and have spent a few hours perusing these boards finding info about European car seats.

I feel pretty strongly about keeping my girls (2.5/almost 4) in a 5 point harness for as long as possible and have been looking at purchasing one of the following:

Safeguard Go
Britax Regent
Sunshine Kids Radian (65/80)

Here are the problems I'm having. One, I'm not sure what the laws are about bringing my seats from the US - how can I find this out? Also, there (as I've read here and confirmed for myself) are very few 5 point harness seats for past 40 lbs.

My other concern is traveling with the seat. We will do a lot of flying and I'd like to be able to easily travel with the seat (mainly why I'm considering the Go and Radian).

I'd really appreciate any help on the matter. I also don't understand how I could have a US spec vehicle in France. Can I purchase the car here in the states and have it delivered/pick it up there?

Thanks so much!
angie
 
ADS

Adventuredad

New member
Welcome to Europe:D There are some different options available to you. You will not be able to legally use US car seats in France. If you're military, different rules apply but I doubt this is the case since we're talking about France. You're allowed to use US car seat for a limited time if you;re a visitor, if you move to Europe you're legally required to use an approved European seat (ECE R44).

It's a good idea following the law but I would personally see some cases where I would willingly break the law. If I was living in US or Canada I would be breaking the law for sure. Regardless of country, I would still use a Swedish rear facing seat until age 4-5. Rf limit for these seats are 55 lbs (25 kilo) and most kids here (I'm in Sweden) sit rear facing until age 4-5. Then they go straight to a belt positioning booster.

Europe outside of Scandinavia (Denmark suck but I till include them) are about as good as US regarding car seat safety. That is, pretty bad. I would recommend you get a Swedish Rf seat for your youngest one which will enable him/her to probably rear face until age 4-5. My son was recently turned forward at age 4+, if you child is smaller you will be able to rf much longer.All Swedish rf seas are of course ECE R44 certified and legal to use in Europe.

For your oldest one I would recommend a good belt positioning booster with nice SIP. Most gurus on this site recommend harnessing kids until later but I go by what the leading experts in the field (Swedish researchers) recommend which is belt positioning boosters. You can then go with the Evolva 2-3 which is nice belt positioning booster with good SIP.

But you mention you prefer harnessed seats. You've got the Evolva 1-2-3 which is a ff harnessed seat with weight limit of 36 kilo 80 lbs). There are other choices as well, both ff and boosters, which are equally good (or better?).

About flying. I've done some 50 flights with my kids and don't use seats on aircraft. The main reason is actually safety. Using a car seat on a plane is safer but the risk of something happening, turbulence or crash landing, is so incredibly small one can virtually ignore it. One statistic which is frequently used is that there are 25 000+ flights in US each day. During a 20 year period, 3 people died and a few hundred were injured by turbulence. That's numbers so small virtually anything is more dangerous.:twocents:

Like I said, car seat is safer but some airlines won't allow them since flight in Europe are often short (and extremely cheap). The ultra safety conscious Scandinavians don't use car seats on planes which some might consider stupid and other common sense. It's up to you to decide. You might run into problems using a US seat on planes in Europe although I doubt it. You're far more likely to not be allowed to use it at all though.

About the car. Why would you like to have a US spec car? I ask of curiosity, not for any other reason. Differences are minimal and you'll find the European cars being of very high standard.

You can bring a car with you, I've shipped over a couple of sports cars. If you import a car, it's more costly and far more complicated (you will have to do this). If you bring it with you as an expat having been abroad it's a breeze to bring the car with you. It costs virtually nothing. Check with customs what applies although I'm confused what's so appealing with a US spec car.

Let me know if you have any more questions and PM me if you need help with a Swedish seat.

Enjoy France, it's a lovely place!!!
 

ilovethesun

New member
Thanks for the advice - I appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions.

I am pretty well attached to having them in a harness past 40 lbs and DH isn't too excited about using a rear facing seat (DD has been FF since 1 and is now almost 4 so to change her would be hard). She is about 35 pounds though so I know that it won't be long before she outgrows her current Summit seat. I'll check out the Swedish seats anyway though.

I'm not really concerned about using it on the airplane as much as traveling with it in general. Our current seats are so heavy and bulky. The other concern with that is that we are definitely going to be downsizing our car from a minivan to probably a sedan so I'm looking for something a little more compact.

In regards to a US spec car, I'm not really looking for one. Just heard the term tossed around and was wondering how that worked. I'm sure European cars are just fine.

At this point, we're not really sure what to do and will probably stick with our current seats until we get there and see what there is to see.

Thanks again for your help!
angie
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
It's a good idea following the law but I would personally see some cases where I would willingly break the law. If I was living in US or Canada I would be breaking the law for sure.

I'm going to assume that you have an explanation to why you'd break the law if you'd live in the US or Canada. I know it's personal, but pls explain so readers would be able to reason for themselves on what to do. In addition, I don't appreciate having a statement to break the law hanging around on the forum, however personal, since many might take that as an 'advice'.

Ilovethesun, Adventuredad lives in Sweden and be able to help, but I'm also hoping someone else will be able to chime in to help with relevant and legal advice for France.
 

Adventuredad

New member
I'm going to assume that you have an explanation to why you'd break the law if you'd live in the US or Canada. I know it's personal, but pls explain so readers would be able to reason for themselves on what to do. In addition, I don't appreciate having a statement to break the law hanging around on the forum, however personal, since many would take that as an 'advice'.

It's very simple. I don't advice anyone breaking the law, I said I would personally do this. I would have no issues breaking the law as long as it provided a substantial safety benefit for my child. Lets say rear facing my child until age 5 instead of 2.5 years in US using a Swedish seat to mention one example.

There are constantly statements by forum members in US, Canada, and other places using non approved seats for safety purposes. Like I said, it's not advice, it's a personal decision.

The seats OP mentioned don't offer any substantial safety benefits so I don't see any reason to why using them in Europe for an extended amount of time would be beneficial.

Ilovethesun, Adventuredad lives in Sweden and be able to help, but I'm also hoping someone else will be able to chime in to help with relevant and legal advice for France.

Sweden is as you probably know located in Europe. France is also a part of Europe and the same rules apply. All Swedish seats are ECE R44 approved. The other seats I mentioned are of course ECe R 44 approved as well. Feel free to seek legal advice, the situation with seats is very straightforward. They need to be approved where they are used, otherwise it's technically illegal to use them. US seats are not legal to use in Europe unless as a visitor.

About flying. We don't use seats on airplanes but sure ring them along. On every single flight. The Swedish seats are a little bulkier, some gate check them but we've chosen to check them as luggage on all our flights. We use special padded car seat bags which are then additionally padded by bubble wrap and/or diaprs, clothing, toys etc. It has worked rally well for us and we would never consider traveling without the seats.

The Britax Evolva seats are good ff harnessed seats with nice SIP. You will be able to ff your kids for a very long time:thumbsup:

BEst of luck with everything
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
It's very simple. I don't advice anyone breaking the law, I said I would personally do this. I would have no issues breaking the law as long as it provided a substantial safety benefit for my child. Lets say rear facing my child until age 5 instead of 2.5 years in US using a Swedish seat to mention one example.

As long as we make that it is clear that it is your personal opinion for your own children.

Sweden is as you probably know located in Europe. France is also a part of Europe and the same rules apply.

Rest assure I know where France and Sweden are. If I don't remember, I can always ask my 7 or 9 yrs old kids since I taught them that a few yrs ago.

However, since I don't live in France, don't have my certification there, and don't know my CRS facts for France, I hesitate to shoot off my mouth to say anything. Therefore, I'm seeking sound advice from someone who might know for the original question and poster.

Instead of going around in circle, can you satisfy my curiousity, that w/o breaking any laws, ANY carseats with ECE R44 certification can be used in France? Thx.
 

Adventuredad

New member
Sorry if I was being rude and annoying. :eek:

Car seats certified ECE R44 can be used in France and in a large number of other European countries as well. Since all Swedish seats are ECE R44 they can also be used almost anywhere in Europe. There used to more standards, among them the Swedish "T" standard (which was very tough to pass), but EU has made this easier.
 
I live in the UK and currently use a US seat in my car.

The seat in question is a sunshine kids radian. I contacted sunshine kids in the uk asking why they did not produce this seat in the uk, while they have the monterey???

The simple answer was that it had not been tested in the uk yet, so it was illegal for them to sell it in the uk.
What they did say was that if the seat fit my car, then it would be SAFE to use in the UK. Its obviously safe enough for the US market, and our cars are not exactly made on different planets... so while some might call it LAtch, others call it ISOFIX - some have locking seatbelts and others need locking clips - things are pretty much equal.

I don't know about anyone else........ but how often have I or anyone I know been stopped and questioned about car seats????? Erm, like NEVER.

Most people on this board might know one seat from the next, and which is expired or a new model - but most people in the 'real' world do not.

I doubt anyone with any authority to tell me I was using an 'illegal' seat would actually know the difference??????? :twocents:
 

hipmaman

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Sorry if I was being rude and annoying. :eek:

You know you were :rolleyes:

Car seats certified ECE R44 can be used in France and in a large number of other European countries as well. Since all Swedish seats are ECE R44 they can also be used almost anywhere in Europe. There used to more standards, among them the Swedish "T" standard (which was very tough to pass), but EU has made this easier.

See, I know you are capable of giving short, sweet and relevant answer w/o knocking anyone or any country while doing it :whistle: :D

To ilovethesun, We'll see if we can find any high-weight harness seat with ECE R44 somewhere in Europe.
 

BookMama

Senior Community Member
I doubt anyone with any authority to tell me I was using an 'illegal' seat would actually know the difference??????? :twocents:

Sure they would. :) All they have to do is look at the stickers on the side of the seat.

US seats have the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) 213 sticker, Canadian seats have the CMVSS 213 sticker, and European seats have the ECE R44 sticker. There are NO seats that have more than one of the stickers, because there are requirements for each certification that exclude the others.
 

featherhead

Well-known member
Sure they would. :) All they have to do is look at the stickers on the side of the seat.

US seats have the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) 213 sticker, Canadian seats have the CMVSS 213 sticker, and European seats have the ECE R44 sticker. There are NO seats that have more than one of the stickers, because there are requirements for each certification that exclude the others.

Yup, happened to someone who comes to my church. Got a hefty fine for it.
 

horsesitaly

Senior Community Member
About the car. Why would you like to have a US spec car? I ask of curiosity, not for any other reason. Differences are minimal and you'll find the European cars being of very high standard.

I currently live in Italy and did some damage to my passenger side door on my Mazda. They have to order a US spec door for it, I am told it has to do with steel reinforced side beams. Something I want if I'm ever in a side impact! I don't have any references for you though, just the word of our mechanic here.
 

Adventuredad

New member
I live in the UK and currently use a US seat in my car.

The seat in question is a sunshine kids radian. I contacted sunshine kids in the uk asking why they did not produce this seat in the uk, while they have the monterey???

The simple answer was that it had not been tested in the uk yet, so it was illegal for them to sell it in the uk.
What they did say was that if the seat fit my car, then it would be SAFE to use in the UK. Its obviously safe enough for the US market, and our cars are not exactly made on different planets... so while some might call it LAtch, others call it ISOFIX - some have locking seatbelts and others need locking clips - things are pretty much equal.

I don't know about anyone else........ but how often have I or anyone I know been stopped and questioned about car seats????? Erm, like NEVER.

Most people on this board might know one seat from the next, and which is expired or a new model - but most people in the 'real' world do not.

I doubt anyone with any authority to tell me I was using an 'illegal' seat would actually know the difference??????? :twocents:

I agree with all of that. It's good to follow the law but it's a little absurd when it leads to kids being LESS safe. If I was living in US I would like to rf until 4-5 years which I couldn't. I would use a Swedish 55 lbs rf seat which would keep my kids much safer although that would be illegal.

Crash testing in US and EUrope is very similar with small minor differences. What's safe in one country is safe in another. Using a US Snugride in Europe is illegal although the European version is the same.

Here in Europe the choices of governments and manufacturers are sometimes very frustrating. For example, the Great 55 lbs rfing Swedish seats, which are certified and legal to use all over Europe, are not sold outside Scandinavia. :mad: They may occasionally be found in other countries at stores which have imported them privately. That means you can't rf a child in German or France until age 3 or 4 even though there are super safe seats available which are also legal and certified. Britax doesn't sell erf seats outside Scandinavia since "there is no demand for it". Very frustrating.

THis is why I will be starting a CAr Seat Store on the internet where people can be the excellent Swedish rf seats wherever they live

The people on this board who use "illegal" seats, and it's quite a few, do so after checking and couble checking before if it's a good idea. Unfortunately not everyone is so thourough which is why it's a good idea to follow the car set laws.

Sure they would. All they have to do is look at the stickers on the side of the seat.

Not using a car seat because of the chances of getting a ticket is paranoid. The risk is too small to even measure. I've actually been stopped in US with my Swedish rf seats. I had a nice chat with the cop and asked him if he was going to give me a ticket. He laughed at me and say no way. That may not be normal but getting a ticket for a "illegal" seat is unusual.

There are NO seats that have more than one of the stickers, because there are requirements for each certification that exclude the others.

Actually not true. A seat can be certified in two places, say EU and US. I seem to vaguely remember one such seat but have to look into it further. The reason why seats are not certified in more than one place has to do with politics, manufacturers,and money. It's not cheap to certify a seat and there must also be a demand.


I currently live in Italy and did some damage to my passenger side door on my Mazda. They have to order a US spec door for it, I am told it has to do with steel reinforced side beams. Something I want if I'm ever in a side impact! I don't have any references for you though, just the word of our mechanic here.

WIthout getting into detail, lets just say you will be just fine safety wise in any European car.
 
[QUOTETo ilovethesun, We'll see if we can find any high-weight harness seat with ECE R44 somewhere in Europe.[/QUOTE]


http://www.incarsafetycentre.co.uk/shop/special.html

Above is a link to a website that sells the only high weight harness seat in the UK.
It is designated as a special needs seat - but kind of looks like the regent to me!
They cost a fortune, and are not really known about as they are classed as special needs seats!

They also have a couple of RF seats i think adventuredad will be familiar with, but again - most people are unaware these seats exist. They are also fairly big bulky seats so it would be quite impossible to get 3 of these accross a back seat - hence my decision to use a Radian.
If i just had two kids, these might be more of an option - oh and if i robbed a bank too - as there is a vast difference in price.

maybe if these seats where more widely available and more people got to know about them - the price would not be quite so high.
 

Eclipsepearl

New member
Welcome to France.

I've been living here since 1996 and all three of my children were born here. I'm American and also became French in 2002. I'm a former Flight Attendant and we fly a lot. We always take a car seat with us. As an ex-F/A, I've had to watch all those crash videos and yes, taking a car seat with you on the plane is much, much safer but more about that later.

Currently, I have my two older children in boosters. My 6 yo is in a hbb but she is off the charts for her age here. My 9 yo is in a lbb.

My youngest, age 4, is riding in a Radian which I brought from the States. Because we're on the German-French border, I looked in vain in both countries for a higher harnessed seat. Finally, I found out that the EU does NOT approve ANY higher harnessed seats. They test to 40lbs/18 kilos and then it's expected that the child ride in booster.

I wrote Sunshine Kids and asked them directly why they didn't sell in Europe and Russell wrote back that the Radian is approved to the max, 40lbs. but since they can't get a higher approval, they wont bother selling over here because the whole point of the Radian is to keep a child harnessed to 65 or 80lbs. If they aren't allowed to advertise this fact, it serves no purose to simply compete and yet-another 40lbs maximum seat.

I even had stores trying to locate higher harnessed seats of brands they carried and wrote Britax in France and asked why they didn't sell the Marathon, Regent, etc. All I got back was a poorly written (probably standard) letter saying that Britax takes children's safety seriously and totally missed the point. When I wrote back to clarify, I never had a response.

This is unacceptable and I brought the Radian over. A couple of years ago I was in a very small car accident but the police did arrive. I actually installed the Radian into a French police car to go to the station. The guy was even joking about it being a French car, implying he realized that it was a foreign seat. He even wanted to save me the trouble and said I could ride with her with just the seatbelt. Heck no! I was just in an accident...

Which brings me to the point. Obviously I couldn't replace it or have my insurance do so. This accident occurred at a very low speed, in heavy traffic and the damage was far from the seat. The car was actually driveable EXCEPT for the fact that a piece of metal was sticking into the tire in front. I had to balance the fact that my dd is in a 5 point harness vs. the potiential issue with using a seat which has been in an accident. Given the minor nature of the accident, I continued to use the seat.

Technically, I'm breaking the law here in France. The police actually stop people quite regularily to check various papers and whether the children are strapped in. They have never checked whether the seat was legal. It actually is up to 40lbs. because it has "UN" approval but I'm unsure what that entails so I don't want to debate that.

I'm not sure how my insurance company would react if they knew about the seat.

Many, many children here are totally unrestrained. Not only are tiny 2 and 3 year olds expected to ride in boosters but it's legal to turn a child ffing at 9 months and 9 kilos. The quality of seats is far below what you find in N. America. Baby buckets still usually only have 3 point harnesses.

Tethers are rare but becoming more common. It's difficult to find cars with tether hooks. I bought a Toyota Yaris. Not all new Toyotas have them but most do. At a Swedish car dealership, they offered to retro-fit them.

Be aware that French roads and parking spaces are much, much narrower than in the U.S. If you will have two cars, get a big one and let your dh use it for work. You take the small one for the school run, etc. You want to be able to parallel park on a dime! You only have two children so that will open up your options. I had trouble finding a car with three shoulder belts in the back. Don't end up parking at the end of the lot because you can't squeeze your car into a closer spot. Don't make your children do unnessary walking because you have to have a bigger car. You simply don't need it. When we go on vacation, etc. my dh has the Landrover but I get by with my Yaris just great.

Make sure you're really comfortable with stick shift (I wasn't when I came-big mistake!) and be aware that the kind of driving here is very defensive. People do really crazy things, like left turns from the right lane on red lights, etc. Do NOT put on your blinkers unless you are going to change lanes right then. You look for a space and THEN turn on your signals (a habit I have to stop when I'm in California). Also, expect wear and tear to your tires at a higher rate than back home. Check them often, be aware that you'll need to change them more often and don't have it contribute to an accident the way my worn-down ones did to me last summer!

Try to avoid getting a French driver's license AT ALL COSTS because it costs a lot! Seven years ago, I probably spent about 800 euros getting mine. It's also stress and complicated. You get one year to drive on a non-approved license. I know people who actually get approved licenses from one of the accepted states before moving to France. The State Dept. has the list (I can't pull it up right now).

About the air travel...

As you probably know, the Regent is not FAA certified. It was one I also considered but opted for the Radian partly for this reason. While Britax obviously sells here, they don't carry that model, only those that harness to 40lbs/18 kilos like I stated earlier.

While air travel is safe, I can confirm that after flying for a living for 13 years, the chances of your checked-in car seat being lost and/or damaged are VERY high. I trotted off a transatlantic last winter to find a lonely one of our four checked bags had made it. Sure, they delivered them two days later but my dd was safe on the 2 hour drive home because we had her Radian with us. Thank goodness! Please, take the seat on board with you.

Which also brings up the case with approved car seats on airplanes... Before the Radian, I had a Sit-n-Stroll and a old version of the Scenera for flying (we do about two trips a year between Europe and California). We also fly in this region of the world.
Air France-was able to use my seat quite a few times without question.
Lufthansa-only once was my U.S. car seat removed. Usually I can fly with it, without question.
Iberia-seat taken away
Ryan Air-seat not allowed on board. Gate agent even called to ask for an exception. Car seats not allowed at all in the cabin.
Charter companies-can't get the info and usually not allowed. Pitch is often very, very tight on these flights. I didn't try because we weren't driving at our destination anyway.

I try to book on U.S. companies when possible, which it isn't always...

Here are my flying tips. Please note that this is a totally non-commercial article written originally for the local American club newsletter;
http://flyingwithchildren.blogspot.com

My contact info is at the end. I have enough advice for you to fill a truck, if you want it (books to read, health care, etc.)

Meanwhile, good luck with all the preparations. It's a great place to live but this is one of the issues you will encounter while living here.

Good luck!
Sharon in Alsace
 

Adventuredad

New member
Sharon, thanks very much for you interesting and very helpful experiences:thumbsup:

While air travel is safe, I can confirm that after flying for a living for 13 years, the chances of your checked-in car seat being lost and/or damaged are VERY high.

Good point. I've been lucky and always received my seats. Another option is to check it at the gate, but luggage might still get mixed up with teh regular luggage. Anyway, it's a greater chance your seats will make it with you.

Airlines in Europe are also sometimes piccky about seats due to teh short flying times and being low price airlines. Ryan Air is one example which Sharon mnetioned. They don't allow and seats on board but you might be able to gate check them. If you check your car seats as regular luggage and hand it on at the BULKY items section, the car seats will most likely be treated like gate check.

Technically, I'm breaking the law here in France. The police actually stop people quite regularily to check various papers and whether the children are strapped in. They have never checked whether the seat was legal. It actually is up to 40lbs. because it has "UN" approval but I'm unsure what that entails so I don't want to debate that.

The risk of police giving you a ticket is even smaller than being injured by turbulence (and that's small....). If you have a US seat from 1979 installed you might have problems. But if you use a seat which is safe it's unlikely anyone will care. Loved the story about installing the seat in the police car. LOL!!

The place in UK which sells the Swedish seats have been mentioned before. If you're interested I can assist you in getting any Swedish seat from here (let me know via PM). They are a little more expensive but very safe and can often be used Rf until age 5 or so.

Thanks again Sharon for the helpful info.:thumbsup:
 
Sharon,
I have just finished reading your blog
WOW - how interesting was that - thank you so much.
you should turn it into a book? Or maybe a manual to be given out when people book travel?
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

ilovethesun

New member
All,

Thank you so much for your responses. I don't have time now but I will come back and ask more specific questions. Sharon, I truly appreciate the time and energy you took to provide info for me in France! This is going to be a big move for us so I'll take all the help I can get!

I'll be back later!
angie
 

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