interpreting this Dorel communication

christineka · Aug 30, 2008

The Avenue manual states that 36 inches is the maximum hight for a rear-facing child. My dd is 35 inches tall and has 5 inches above her head in the avenue. All of you smart people say that the child has outgrown rfing by hight when the child's head is an inch from the top of the shell.

I decided to ask Dorel which to go by and this was their answer:

Dear Christine:
You can go by the 36 inches. The child’s head can be all the way to the top of the seat. You do not want to use the seat if the child’s head is above the seat. You do not want the back of the back of the car seat any lower than midpoint on the child’s head. In other words if your child’s ears are above the back of the seat discontinue use.

Thank You,

Dorothy, CPST

Consumer Relations

Dorel Juvenile Group

I replied to ask for clarification as to whether this applied to rear or forward facing. The cpst replied with this:

Dear Christine:
The information I gave you was for rear facing.

Dorothy, CPST

As I understand it then, the avenue is outgrown either when the child reaches 36 1/4 inches or when the child's head is even with the shell if that should come first. So, in one year when dd reaches that hight, weighs 30 pounds, and has a 12.5 inch torso, she must be turned forward facing.

What do you think of this? Do we go by the 1 inch rule, the overall hight max, or head even with the shell?

joolsplus3 · Aug 30, 2008

For my own kid, I would go with the one inch rule. That assures the head will be contained in a severe crash, even if the kiddo ramps up a bit because the harness is a little loose or stretches. The 36 inches isn't a bad rule, it's average for a 2-2.5 yo, but it's kind of just a guideline, because kids can be shaped SO differently (all torso, and thus getting up there even with the top of the seat, or all leg and still way low in the seat... every kid is different). :twocents:

azgirl71 · Aug 30, 2008

I would still go with the 1 inch rule.

skaterbabs · Aug 30, 2008

I'd go by the one inch rule too.

lovinwaves · Aug 30, 2008

I go by the one inch rule too, mainly because in my vehicles the car seat is either touching the seat in front of it, or because I am more lax about not having the harness straps so tight while the child is rear-facing, thus possibility allowing more ramping. :twocents:

christineka · Aug 30, 2008

My dd, actually won't make it to the top of the shell till around age 8 or 9 and better be over 40 pounds at that point. I was just curious about that. But, dd will reach 36 inches before she gets to 35 pounds. Would it really be okay to keep dd rear-facing when she is 40 inches long if she is 34 pounds? (Her legs would have to not grow at all for her to gain those 5 inches in head room.)

Why do you people and dorel disagree? Who really knows what is safe? Aren't they the ones who have tested the product?

skaterbabs · Aug 30, 2008

The standing height is required by government standards, and doesn't take into account that different children are shaped, well, differently. One child will be all legs and fit in a seat years longer than another child the exact same overall height who has a long torso and short legs.

LISmama810 · Aug 30, 2008

The only parts of the child being contained by the seat are the torso, neck, and head (in other words, not the legs). They need to give a height limit, but two kids who are 36" tall can fit very differently in a seat depending on how long their torsos are.

From the email, it sounds like Dorel is saying the child's head can be even with the top of the seat, but I'd be more comfortable with some buffer. The child might ramp up during a crash, and you don't want the head to go over the seat because it could hit something else, or could stretch the neck.

(The part of the email that said it was ok for the child's ears to be even with the top of the seat was referring to FF, by the way, despite what the follow-up email said.)

Because Dorel states a 36" maximum to RF, we would technically be going against manufacturer directions, so if you're not comfortable doing that, then don't. But the fact of the matter is that the "one-inch rule" is generally accepted as the rule for a RF kid. As long as the child's head is contained, the child is 4-5 times safer RF than FF. That alone would have me keeping my kid RF as long as possible.

joolsplus3 · Aug 30, 2008

http://www.carseat.org/Technical/tech_update.htm#rearfacCR

"Because rear-facing CRs are the most effective restraint available, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that “children should remain rear-facing until reaching the maximum weight for the seat, as long as the top of the head is below the top of the seat back” (see AAP, 2002)."

Shaunam · Aug 30, 2008

christineka said:
My dd, actually won't make it to the top of the shell till around age 8 or 9 and better be over 40 pounds at that point. I was just curious about that. But, dd will reach 36 inches before she gets to 35 pounds. Would it really be okay to keep dd rear-facing when she is 40 inches long if she is 34 pounds? (Her legs would have to not grow at all for her to gain those 5 inches in head room.)

Why do you people and dorel disagree? Who really knows what is safe? Aren't they the ones who have tested the product?

The car seat manufacturers are required to put a standing height limit on their product. However this is a silly rule because children are all shapes and sizes and will not all outgrow the seat at a particular height.

They choose a low number to err on the side of caution. It's very unlikely that even a very tall-torsoed child will be to the top of the shell at 36".

On the flip-side, they also state that it is outgrown ffing at 40", but LOTS of kids are over the top slot before 40". Should the parents continue to use it? Of course not!

Also, what if a child hits 32" before a year? Turn them around even though they didn't make the other minimums? What about a 19 lb 32" child? What do you do then? If it's ok to keep an 11 month old rfing past the "height limit" why not a 2 year old, or a 3 year old? What changes when they are a year?

The people answering phones and email at dorel are likely not familiar with these concepts. Standing height means diddly when you are talking about car seats. Torso height is everything. That's why they also include the guidelines for rfing (1" below the shell) and ffing (below the top slots and tips of ears below the seat) in addition to the weight limits.

christineka · Aug 30, 2008

Shaunam said:
Also, what if a child hits 32" before a year? Turn them around even though they didn't make the other minimums? What about a 19 lb 32" child? What do you do then? If it's ok to keep an 11 month old rfing past the "height limit" why not a 2 year old, or a 3 year old? What changes when they are a year?

The minimum for forward facing in the dorel seats is 32 inches, 22 pounds, and age 1. The max is 36 inches and 35 pounds. I think it is highly unlikely for an 11 month old to be 36 1/4 inches tall and 35.1 pounds. My 18 month old is 30 inches tall.

The person who emailed me claims to be a cpst. Shouldn't she know her stuff?

Now, my dd may be 4.5 years old by the time she reaches 36 1/4 inches tall. I may turn her around before outgrowing the rfing max anyway, but the avenue has an 8 year life span. Maybe my ds or the next kid will be taller.

Shaunam · Aug 30, 2008

christineka said:
The minimum for forward facing in the dorel seats is 32 inches, 22 pounds, and age 1. The max is 36 inches and 35 pounds. I think it is highly unlikely for an 11 month old to be 36 1/4 inches tall and 35.1 pounds. My 18 month old is 30 inches tall.

The person who emailed me claims to be a cpst. Shouldn't she know her stuff?

Now, my dd may be 4.5 years old by the time she reaches 36 1/4 inches tall. I may turn her around before outgrowing the rfing max anyway, but the avenue has an 8 year life span. Maybe my ds or the next kid will be taller.

Sorry, I was mixed up about the 32" and 36". It may not be common but it happens. I specifically remember a few babies on my DS's bbc birth board being over 36" at a year.

Anyway, it was just an example. You can turn whenever you feel like it. But I think the standing height rule is ridiculus. My diplomat says max 33" for rfing, which my DD will probably be by 2 years (and maybe 28 lbs). She's quadriplegic and can't even hold her own head up. I'd much rather go for the 1" rule. I think it makes more sense and my DD is safer rfing. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't do it. I don't think I can explain it better than I already have.

LISmama810 · Aug 30, 2008

christineka said:
The person who emailed me claims to be a cpst. Shouldn't she know her stuff?

All CPSTs SHOULD know their stuff. The sad reality is that many don't.

Also, she very well might understand things like the "one-inch" rule, but she also works for a car seat manufacturer, and has to follow the company line despite what has been deemed standard practice (and safe practice, I might add).

We have all explained the logic behind our recommendations. It's up to you whether you feel more comfortable following our recommendations or those of the Dorel representative.

Shaunam · Aug 30, 2008

christineka said:
The person who emailed me claims to be a cpst. Shouldn't she know her stuff?

Not necessarily. She *should* but we all know not everyone is good at their jobs.

cryswilkins · Aug 30, 2008

christineka said:
The max is 36 inches and 35 pounds. I think it is highly unlikely for an 11 month old to be 36 1/4 inches tall and 35.1 pounds. My 18 month old is 30 inches tall.

My 20 month old is 37 inches. So it would not be totally unrealistic. :twocents:

joolsplus3 · Aug 30, 2008

Jennie's right, she HAS to follow the manual. Customer Service Reps, techs or not, are bound to follow the rules their company. We just tried to give solid reasons for why we might adhere to a slightly higher standard (heck, the crash test dummy is 37 inches, so it's good for at least that height

...but we don't know it's leg/torso measurements...)

interpreting this Dorel communication

christineka

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