Boosters vs. 5-point harness

Adventuredad

New member
It's been discussed here before (at length) but a harnessed seat is not any safer than a booster seat UNLESS the child is very young. Say 2 or 3 years old. The recommendations among experts over here in Sweden is to use a booster instead of a harnessed seat. Parents are also advised not to use seats with the harness if the seat belt can be used. The recommendation is because of the tremendous force on the neck in harnessed kids.

I would say harnessed seats are about as safe as boosters, it's not a big difference. The Swedes, who are far ahead of any other country in car seat safety, have plenty of data to back up the safety of boosters. Almost no harnessed seats are used after rf until 4 years of age. Kids go straight to a booster and the death and injury rate is unbelievably small.

I'm not saying this to bash seats with harness but perhaps give you some more choices in finding a safe seat. My son is 4.5 years old and recently turned around ff. He's in a Britax Monarch which is very affordable and we're happy with the safety aspects.

Is your son riding rear facing right now? Best of luck with whatever you decide
 
ADS

Starlight

Senior Community Member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

A harnessed seat *is* safer than a booster, because in a crash, the force is more evenly spread over 5 points as opposed to just 3.
 

BookMama

Senior Community Member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

A harnessed seat *is* safer than a booster, because in a crash, the force is more evenly spread over 5 points as opposed to just 3.

Not to mention that I've yet to see any 2-3 YO who can sit properly in a booster for any length of time. Belt-positioning boosters can only provide optimal protection when the seat belt is positioned properly.
 

mommy2env

Active member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

:yeahthat:

Plus, he is only 3. Most 3 yr olds dont have the impulse control to sit properly in a booster all the time, every time.

I would go with the Nautilus or Regent. :)

ETA: we cross posted Bookmama, sorry :eek:
 
Last edited:

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Some members have been trying to disprove it (in a friendly and helpful way) but there is no data that shows boosters are less safe unless we're talking special needs or very young kids. My personal opinion is that kids are about as safe, the Swedish data say otherwise. Just curious, are you saying this is incorrect?

All Swedish kids age 4 and up are riding in boosters and the safety record is phenomenal. The experts here also have so much more experience regarding car seat safety. They got started in the early 1960's which is light-years ahead of anyone else. Recommending one thing and having a terrible safety record is one thing. Recommending something and backing it up with amazing data is another. It's up to each and everyone to trust whoever they want but I listen more to people who don't just talk (and I don't mean anyone on tis board, I mean in general).

Harnessing older kids is just fine in the big picture, I'm just happy to see children well protected. But many who do advocate harnessing have based judgement on a youtube video which has little to do with reality.
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

A harnessed seat *is* safer than a booster, because in a crash, the force is more evenly spread over 5 points as opposed to just 3.

That is absolutely incorrect. The problem are the enormous forces on the neck. Car seat safety is not as easy as just "spreading the rode"
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Not to mention that I've yet to see any 2-3 YO who can sit properly in a booster for any length of time. Belt-positioning boosters can only provide optimal protection when the seat belt is positioned properly.

Which is why I pointed out that young kids shouldn't ride in a booster. Did you not read that?:confused: A 2 year old in a booster is ridiculous and completely out of the question.
 

mommy2env

Active member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

If this is a topic that NEEDS to be debated, why dont you start a new thread. It is a bit unfair to the newbie who came here for advice. She may leave more confused than when she came here. :(
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

:yeahthat:

Plus, he is only 3. Most 3 yr olds dont have the impulse control to sit properly in a booster all the time, every time.

I would go with the Nautilus or Regent. :)

He will be 4 in September, is that not amonth from now or am I confused?:confused:
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

If this is a topic that NEEDS to be debated, why dont you start a new thread. It is a bit unfair to the newbie who came here for advice. She may leave more confused than when she came here. :(

Based on the comments it's very clear that it needs to be debated but definitely not in this thread. I mentioned the option of also being able to use a regular belt positioning booster so she would have some more choices, not spending tons of money, and still keep her son SAFE. That is not confusing advice.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

It's been discussed here before (at length) but a harnessed seat is not any safer than a booster seat UNLESS the child is very young. Say 2 or 3 years old. The recommendations among experts over here in Sweden is to use a booster instead of a harnessed seat. Parents are also advised not to use seats with the harness if the seat belt can be used. The recommendation is because of the tremendous force on the neck in harnessed kids.

The head is not restrained in a booster, either. It's going to stop because of the shoulder belt if properly used. If the child circumvents the shoulder belt, the head will experience tremendous force when it strikes a part of the interior. On the flip side, experts in Australia have found no issues with people turning their 9 month old front facing in a harnessed seat, though medical experts would tell you that older kids can survive such forces better as their bones and connective tissue develop.

I would say harnessed seats are about as safe as boosters, it's not a big difference. The Swedes, who are far ahead of any other country in car seat safety, have plenty of data to back up the safety of boosters. Almost no harnessed seats are used after rf until 4 years of age. Kids go straight to a booster and the death and injury rate is unbelievably small.

Some statistics would suggest it's just as safe for 2 and 3 year olds to skip boosters and go straight to a seatbelt. It all depends who you believe.

The laws of physics suggest that the more points of restraint, the better coupled you are to the vehicle and the less chance of circumventing the restraint system if properly used. At some point there are diminishing returns as a child gets older, of course. On the other hand, I would seriously doubt that a 5-point harness is less safe than a booster. If so, perhaps professional race car drivers and stunt men should go for boosters, too! I'd be very interested in Swedish statistics that show 5-point harnesses to be any less safe than boosters because of neck or cervical spine injuries for older kids. That would be worth getting a response from researchers at the next conference...
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

There's just no data in this country that harnessed seats are inherently less safe than boosters. They are safe. Even Sweden finds that kids in boosters younger than about age 5 are at increased risk of head injury. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0330-O.pdf (page 5). Really, a harnessed seat is safe. Probably safer in more types of crashes, and it's what's recommended for 4 year olds (and older, since, again, there's nothing to say they are less safe than boosters).

:)
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

On the other hand, I would seriously doubt that a 5-point harness is less safe than a booster. If so, perhaps professional race car drivers and stunt men should go for boosters, too!

Last time I checked there were no 4-year old professional race car drivers or stunt men. The issue are the forces on the neck. It may look great on youtube but the neck might be severely injured. I know you are aware of this but not everyone is. There are times a harnessed seat would be better and otehr times when a booster would be better.

The head is not restrained in a booster, either. It's going to stop because of the shoulder belt if properly used. If the child circumvents the shoulder belt, the head will experience tremendous force when it strikes a part of the interior.

Incorrect use will obviously lead to terrible things in any seat. The issue with harnessed seats are that he the head is restrained too well.

Really, a harnessed seat is safe

Which is exactly what I'm saying. I said harnessed seats are about as safe as boosters. I also said kids in harnessed seats are just fine and well protected. I've also mentioned this many times before and, again, I'm not bashing harnessed seats. You and I have talked about this and the conclusion from my side was never that harnessed seats were unsafe. In that case they would never be certified. I mentioned booster to the poster so she would have more choices and since her son will be 4 in one month (if I understood her correctly) it may be an option to consider.

and older, since, again, there's nothing to say they are less safe than boosters).

I mentioned that experts who are leading in the field and with tons of safety data behind them, both in labs and real life, recommend boosters. If people don't want to believe this, it's fine. Everyone is free to make their own choices.

There's just no data in this country that harnessed seats are inherently less safe than boosters. They are safe. Even Sweden finds that kids in boosters younger than about age 5 are at increased risk of head injury.

The report mentions that kids who switch from rear facing to booster are at greater risk for head injury which is hardly unexpected. I've actually spoken to the author, Lotta, personally about this and don't think she would agree with her paper saying boosters are more dangerous than harnessed seats
 

murphydog77

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Can you please provide the Swedish data in a new thread in the Car Seat Chat or Articles forums? I've seen you reference it several times, yet I've never seen any links. I'd appreciate being able to read through some studies :).
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Oh dear, you better brush up on your Swedish:love::D

To the original poster, sorry about the confusing discussion back and forth. Good luck finding a seat for your son
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Last time I checked there were no 4-year old professional race car drivers or stunt men.

But you said, "It's been discussed here before (at length) but a harnessed seat is not any safer than a booster seat UNLESS the child is very young. Say 2 or 3 years old." My thinking is that the tremendous force on the neck in harnessed kids would be a far greater risk for younger kids with less developed bodies.

The issue are the forces on the neck. It may look great on youtube but the neck might be severely injured. I know you are aware of this but not everyone is. There are times a harnessed seat would be better and otehr times when a booster would be better.

So which times is which one better? Are older kids or younger kids more at risk? How much higher are the neck forces? High enough to cause statistically significant risk of injury for an older child in a 5-point harness rather than a booster? High enough to offset the risk of increased head excursion if a seatbelt is improperly used?

Incorrect use will obviously lead to terrible things in any seat. The issue with harnessed seats are that he the head is restrained too well.

The same discussion is prevalent for RF tethering (Swedish Method of tethering toward the front of the vehicle). Is there an increased neck load during rebound when a tether is used in this manner? Based on crash testing, there probably is. Is it high enough to cause injury that shows up in real crash statistics? Not that I've seen.


Which is exactly what I'm saying. I said harnessed seats are about as safe as boosters. I also said kids in harnessed seats are just fine and well protected. I've also mentioned this many times before and, again, I'm not bashing harnessed seats. You and I have talked about this and the conclusion from my side was never that harnessed seats were unsafe. In that case they would never be certified. I mentioned booster to the poster so she would have more choices and since her son will be 4 in one month (if I understood her correctly) it may be an option to consider.

I mentioned that experts who are leading in the field and with tons of safety data behind them, both in labs and real life, recommend boosters. If people don't want to believe this, it's fine. Everyone is free to make their own choices.

The report mentions that kids who switch from rear facing to booster are at greater risk for head injury which is hardly unexpected. I've actually spoken to the author, Lotta, personally about this and don't think she would agree with her paper saying boosters are more dangerous than harnessed seats

I would say that the older the child, the more likely they are able to endure injuries from being less closely coupled to the vehicle. Going from rear facing to front facing in a harness, or a harness to a booster, or a booster to a seatbelt all are inherently less safe, because they less closely couple the occupant to the vehicle. At what age the maturity and body development makes these increased risks statistically insignificant isn't always clear cut, of course. The longer the better is the general rule. Finding the exact age where a transition causes no increase in risk is the tough part, but it's quite likely that even a small increase in safety due to better restraint is gained by adults. Thus, the comment about race car and stunt drivers.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

Based on the comments it's very clear that it needs to be debated but definitely not in this thread. I mentioned the option of also being able to use a regular belt positioning booster so she would have some more choices, not spending tons of money, and still keep her son SAFE. That is not confusing advice.

Boosters are certainly inexpensive and are a safe choice for a lot of kids. I would agree that a lap/shoulder belt (with a backless booster if necessary) can be as safe in a frontal crash as a 5-point harness. This assumes the child is mature enough to wear it properly at the time of the crash, of course.

The biggest benefit I see for 5-point harness on older kids is in side impacts, rollovers and for those squirmy kids who are less likely to be properly restrained in a lap/shoulder belt at the time of a crash.

I wish I had proof. The statistics just aren't available. That's why I was interested to have some from Sweden.

I note that my 7-year old uses backless boosters from time to time, depending on the vehicle. She was in a 5-poiint harness until she was 6, though. That was when I was confident she wasn't going to be out of position with a lap/shoulder belt.
 

Adventuredad

New member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

All very good points and opinions.:thumbsup:

But you said, "It's been discussed here before (at length) but a harnessed seat is not any safer than a booster seat UNLESS the child is very young. Say 2 or 3 years old." My thinking is that the tremendous force on the neck in harnessed kids would be a far greater risk for younger kids with less developed bodies.

I would consider a ff facing 2 year old much safer than said child in a booster. Neck injuries are an issue but a two year old in a booster just doesn't work. A child that age is simply too small and would also having trouble siting still. I have little experience with young kids in boosters, it's very unusual here. (Thank God)

So which times is which one better? Are older kids or younger kids more at risk? How much higher are the neck forces? High enough to cause statistically significant risk of injury for an older child in a 5-point harness rather than a booster? High enough to offset the risk of increased head excursion if a seatbelt is improperly used?

Older kid in harness are at less risk becasue their neck and muscles are more developed. It's difficult, actually impossible, to quantify the forces since there are no test of boosters vs. harnessing. It would be totally meaningless, except for car seat freaks like us:love::whistle:

Both have passed testing and are safe. Experts here base their recommendations on 45 years of testing seats and data from real life accidents. When I speak to them about this they always mention the same recommendation but point out that harnessing is also safe . There will be no tests, at least not fully accurate, of boosters vs. harnessing since too many subjective things need to be decided. It also a waste of time, both are certified and it would be smarter to devote more time to making parents using an actual seat (or seat belt) for their child since many are still unrestrained.

Does the increased neck forces show up in stats? I find this almost impossible to say. US safety record is horrible but keep in mind that amny kids are unrestrained or improperly restrained. To me, that makes the data look worse. It's tough to analyze things in fine detail since there are so many accidents and also so many with improper use.

The issue you mention with rf is far from the same since forces are on a totally different level and not comparable unless I'm misunderstanding you. rf offer great protection either way.

I would say that the older the child, the more likely they are able to endure injuries from being less closely coupled to the vehicle. Going from rear facing to front facing in a harness, or a harness to a booster, or a booster to a seatbelt all are inherently less safe, because they less closely couple the occupant to the vehicle. At what age the maturity and body development makes these increased risks statistically insignificant isn't always clear cut, of course. The longer the better is the general rule. Finding the exact age where a transition causes no increase in risk is the tough part, but it's quite likely that even a small increase in safety due to better restraint is gained by adults. Thus, the comment about race car and stunt drivers.

I thought this was very well written. Older kids are at less risk because of better body development, of course as long as they are restrained. As you say, it's sometimes difficult to come up with statistical data that show a specific point. The recommendation on boosters by the Swedes are based on some factors which are difficult to quantify or show through stats. But the extensive use and minimal deaths/injuries show that it works very well.

The Swedes nagged about rear facing for tens of years and researchers from other countries didn't care (many still don't care). Today, it's a different story. It's possible that the Swedish researchers will at some point come out with a recommendation saying that harnessing is better. If they do, I'll be happy to change my opinions and also put my kids in harnessed seats. But again, I think the overall safety difference is small and not really worth talking much about. I just don't like when people talk down on bosters without knowing much about them and basing many opinions on incorrect use (like a 2-year old in a booster).

Enough of this, time for some wine:thumbsup: I enjoyed your, as usually, interesting views on the subject.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Re: 5-point harness booster seats - anyone have one?

All very good points and opinions.:thumbsup:



I would consider a ff facing 2 year old much safer than said child in a booster. Neck injuries are an issue but a two year old in a booster just doesn't work. A child that age is simply too small and would also having trouble siting still.

I agree, but if the risks of a harness are enough to be any concern for older kids as you suggest, then they are certainly a big concern for younger kids.



Older kid in harness are at less risk becasue their neck and muscles are more developed. It's difficult, actually impossible, to quantify the forces since there are no test of boosters vs. harnessing. It would be totally meaningless, except for car seat freaks like us:love::whistle:

Not at all. This is the job of the experts. If they can't quantify it, they really don't have much relevant expertise.

Both have passed testing and are safe. Experts here base their recommendations on 45 years of testing seats and data from real life accidents. When I speak to them about this they always mention the same recommendation but point out that harnessing is also safe . There will be no tests, at least not fully accurate, of boosters vs. harnessing since too many subjective things need to be decided. It also a waste of time, both are certified and it would be smarter to devote more time to making parents using an actual seat (or seat belt) for their child since many are still unrestrained.

Does the increased neck forces show up in stats? I find this almost impossible to say. US safety record is horrible but keep in mind that amny kids are unrestrained or improperly restrained. To me, that makes the data look worse. It's tough to analyze things in fine detail since there are so many accidents and also so many with improper use.

I could call myself an expert. Without any data to prove my opinions, I'm no more legitimate then any other "expert". With 45 years of data, I would hope they have something appropraiate to justify these claims!

The issue you mention with rf is far from the same since forces are on a totally different level and not comparable unless I'm misunderstanding you. rf offer great protection either way.

How would you know they are a totally different level? Exactly, without any testing and quantification, you can't say.



I thought this was very well written. Older kids are at less risk because of better body development, of course as long as they are restrained. As you say, it's sometimes difficult to come up with statistical data that show a specific point. The recommendation on boosters by the Swedes are based on some factors which are difficult to quantify or show through stats. But the extensive use and minimal deaths/injuries show that it works very well.

Not necessarily. Are there any other variables as you suggested earlier? Is child restraint use more prevalent? Is misuse less prevalent? Those factors alone can be a major factor for minimal deaths/injuries relative to other countries. A safer vehicle fleet is another. I believe the USA tends to have a much older and heavier fleet than most other countries. More mass = more energy and less safety features to manage it in an older model.

The Swedes nagged about rear facing for tens of years and researchers from other countries didn't care (many still don't care). Today, it's a different story. It's possible that the Swedish researchers will at some point come out with a recommendation saying that harnessing is better. If they do, I'll be happy to change my opinions and also put my kids in harnessed seats. But again, I think the overall safety difference is small and not really worth talking much about. I just don't like when people talk down on bosters without knowing much about them and basing many opinions on incorrect use (like a 2-year old in a booster).

I think the safety difference can be negligible, given the right circumstances, such as a child who hasn't circumvented the lap and shoulder belt before a frontal crash. For side impacts, rollovers and squirmy kids, a 5-point harness has better restraint and is likely to protect better. How much, it seems impossible to say for sure, given the lack of experts with any data for us to use at present. I note that experts in Australia might debate the issue of rear facing vs. FF based on their data. Again, it could well be that their child restraints are better and more likely to be properly used.
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,655
Messages
2,196,895
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top