Question European car seats and locking clips

Unregistered · Aug 5, 2008

Hello...I am hoping someone can answer this.

We are in Austria for a few months, and my husband's company rented us a Romer carseat. The seat does not have a base or latch system - it is used with a seatbelt. The seatbelt, according to the manual, needs to have the lap belt threaded across the lap, and the shoulder belt behind the seat. This seems similar to many US seats we are used to.

The question I have is this: the 2 cars we tried it in here have seatbelts that do not lock when pulled out. Therefore, the seat is not secured at all unless the car undergoes a short stop. There is no way to pull the seatbelt tight onto the carseat since the belt doesn't lock. In the US, I believe normally this would mean you would need a locking clip to use to stop the belt from loosening after being tightened. But this seat has no locking clip, and the manual makes no mention of it.

When we put it into an Austrian colleague's car, he said they all installed their seats like that, and it's normal that the belt doesn't lock. A mother from Austria also confirmed this.

I am pretty sure this is not right. Everything I find on the internet confirms a locking clip should be used with US carseats in this situation, but I can't find anything on the internet confirming one way or the other for Europe.

Does anyone know anything about this?

FrauS · Aug 6, 2008

Nope, no locking clip. That is how it is done here as the cars do not have automatic locking seat belts. Can then rent you a Römer with a base..well first off does you car have Isofix anhors(LATCH in the US)? If so then can you get a Römer with the base. The base installs using the Isofix anchors and the car seat then clicks into that without any seatbelt necessary.

Anja59 · Aug 6, 2008

I think its similar to the German systems. The seats are only secured with the seatbelt. A couple of newer cars have ISOFIX (from 2004 and younger), but its not mandatory as far as I know... When we are going back to Germany I will use the Recaro young profi plus with Isofix for my infant daughter, an if she has outgrown this seat, I will order the Britax HiWay from Sweden, because its not available anywhere else in the EU... :thumbsdown:

Regular car seats are installed by just wrapping the seatbelt around the seat, for me this is stone age of child safety, and there is very little known about how to secure your child in a car at all...

:twocents:

Best Anja

Unregistered · Aug 6, 2008

European car seats suck. The first time we went to the UK by DS was still in his infant seat so we brought it with us. Second time we borrowed a seat from a friend which she installed in my sisters car. Badly. It was flopping all over the place, not safe at all. Since it didn't have LATCH (most seats don't there) it was a seatbelt install. My hubby managed to get it in properly but it was a struggle and my sister whined about it afterwards because she hurt her finger trying to get it out again. Well boohoo, you're not taking my kid out in the car if the seat isn't installed properly!

For the third time we bought a LATCH booster seat here (the cheap cosco one from Target) and mailed it over in advance. $50 to mail but it still cost significantly less than getting any sort of safe seat in the UK.

I know a kid who went through his parents wind shield because he undid his seatbelt and they didn't stop to make him buckle it again. In most US states he'd have still been in some sort of car seat and would most likely still be alive today. It's a hassle getting the right safety gear sometimes but so worth it.

Adventuredad · Aug 7, 2008

European car seats suck.

Swedish car seats are an exception. They actually make all other car seats suck. I'm referring to the rf seats for kids 6 months to 5-ish years. The seats rf until 25 kilos (55 lbs) but you probably knew this already.

EUrope is not doing well with car seat safety in general. Seat selection is limited in many countries and the information is poor. I still think the situation is better than US IMHO.

If I remember correctly, we used a locking clip over here for our Graco Snugride infant sat. Possibly for our Britax Nordic Freeway as well (rf model).

smurf · Aug 7, 2008

Adventuredad said:
EUrope is not doing well with car seat safety in general. Seat selection is limited in many countries and the information is poor. I still think the situation is better than US IMHO.

I must strongly disagree.
I've travelled several times to France and Belgium when my little ones were babies and people there were genuinely surprised to see my babies (age 6-12 months) rear-facing in a convertible seat. Babies there go straight from bucket seat to FF harnessed seat at around 6 months.

It's a bit better here (Canada, I will not speak for my southern neighbors) because no one here is surprised to see a 6 month-old baby rear-facing. I know most people FF at 12 months and it certainly isn't best practice but it's a lot better than 6 months.

Just my :twocents:

snowbird25ca · Aug 8, 2008

Adventuredad said:
EUrope is not doing well with car seat safety in general. Seat selection is limited in many countries and the information is poor. I still think the situation is better than US IMHO.

If I remember correctly, we used a locking clip over here for our Graco Snugride infant sat. Possibly for our Britax Nordic Freeway as well (rf model).

I'm with Smurf - when you consider that it's normal to have a child 6mos old ff'ing, I don't really see how the US could be worse. On the same level as Sweden? No, probably not since our seats top out at 35lbs rf'ing. But we're not putting 20lb 6mo old kids ff'ing in the vast majority of cases.

Besides, the situation can't be that awful in the US if you're using a US carseat in the newborn stage.

Adventuredad · Aug 8, 2008

when you consider that it's normal to have a child 6mos old ff'ing

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion

It's not standard practice to put 6 months old infants ff in Europe. That's an large exaggeration and not true at all. I've already mentioned that the habit of Europeans outside of Scandinavia are terrible but it's not that bad.

Besides, the situation can't be that awful in the US if you're using a US carseat in the newborn stage.

That's a really unfair comment. Made for US, Sweden, or Australia matters very little. It's almost exactly the same seat. I could have bought the Graco here in Sweden and it would have been the same seat. The infant stage is the easiest one to accommodate.

The rf seats are another story and do make a significant difference in safety. Having a US or Swedish infant seat makes not difference whatsoever. I used the Graco seat for 6 month and then moved to a Britax Hi-Way.

Having good seats is only part of the solution. US has many good choices for seats but the safety record is still horrible. Just because seats are available doesn't mean people will use them, or use any seat at all. The choices in US may be just fine but the selection process is very confusing for most. Infant seats are easy but then parents are faced with ff or rf, convertible seats, applicable laws for different states etc. Convertible seats should then be turned forward at a certain point and the move to booster/harness is no easy task. Things like max weight/height/install are not always easy and the overall experience is confusing. Just look at all the questions from parents being overwhelmed by choices and what's best......

On the same level as Sweden? No, probably not since our seats top out at 35lbs rf'ing.

The safety record is on another planet regardless if comparing 12 months olds, 5 year olds, or 10 year olds. Higher rf limits are only a part of the overall strategy. Saying probably not is being very generous

:twocents:

Morganthe · Aug 8, 2008

Unregistered said:
Hello...I am hoping someone can answer this.

We are in Austria for a few months, and my husband's company rented us a Romer carseat. The seat does not have a base or latch system - it is used with a seatbelt. The seatbelt, according to the manual, needs to have the lap belt threaded across the lap, and the shoulder belt behind the seat. This seems similar to many US seats we are used to.

The question I have is this: the 2 cars we tried it in here have seatbelts that do not lock when pulled out. Therefore, the seat is not secured at all unless the car undergoes a short stop. There is no way to pull the seatbelt tight onto the carseat since the belt doesn't lock. In the US, I believe normally this would mean you would need a locking clip to use to stop the belt from loosening after being tightened. But this seat has no locking clip, and the manual makes no mention of it.

When we put it into an Austrian colleague's car, he said they all installed their seats like that, and it's normal that the belt doesn't lock. A mother from Austria also confirmed this.

I am pretty sure this is not right. Everything I find on the internet confirms a locking clip should be used with US carseats in this situation, but I can't find anything on the internet confirming one way or the other for Europe.

Does anyone know anything about this?

Is it possible that you could locate the exact model on this Roemer Website so we can look at it? You might have to scroll downwards a bit. Graphics are a bit strange.

Are you using an infant bucket or a toddler seat?

It's site for Germany, but in English. Roemer doesn't maintain an Austrian site. But the products should be identical. Then we'll all be able to look at it and perhaps offer some sort of solution for you.

No, the seatbelts don't lock, nor do they use locking clips in European cars.

Instead on the FF'd harness seats, the seat either flips open or you thread the seatbelt in between the back of the seat and the platform.

At the German baby store, when we were searching in 2005, EVERY single car seat for Group 1 age -- had Lockoffs that would clamp down on the seatbelt. They were simple to install and the seats were part of the vehicle within a minute or two. At the time, it was superior to anything I knew to order via US mail or AAFES. I had no idea that Britax seats were similar. I LOVED my dd's Maxi Cosi. Still miss how easy it was to 'get right'.

I don't know how anyone can generalize that All or Most babies are turned at 6 months to face forward all over Europe. The vast majority of babies I saw in cars from 1999-2006 were rear facing in Germany & France. They're pretty darned civilized and love their children too. I know there are exceptions, but there are stupid or ignorant people everywhere. Just because they're European, makes them no better or worse than people in the US. & Canada.

joyride · Aug 8, 2008

I live in Germany, so on-site infos:
Rearfacing seats are mainly used until the child starts walking, so about 12months. I dont know any of the other parents using a Group 1 (ff) seat at 6 months (and the baby must have minimum 9kg so 20lbs to use this ff seats)

2) Imho have all car-seats in Germany locking clips built-in, if the seats were younger than, let´s guess, 6 years.

So try to get the name and type of the seat and I can have a look.

Greetings
Joy

Aurinia · Aug 11, 2008

well ive just come back from spending 2 weeks at my mums in austria and we used a roemer car seat with locking clips AND the seatbelts lock aswell in mu mums toyota yaris. this is the seat we used:
http://www.britax-roemer.de/produkt...de&navid=12&action=act_dessin&id=6&dessin=5#5
unfortunately ff but when we purchased this seat i didint know any better. :thumbsdown:

Morganthe · Aug 11, 2008

Looking at the instructions, the seat appears to have its own belt securing system including a belt clamp to lock down before you flip the seat back into place.

Why would you need a locking clip with it? And how would you use it safely? :scratcheshead:

No griping or moaning about ff'd your child. I turned mine at 18 months and put her into the Maxi Cosi Priori. I have no guilt about it. It was what it was. :shrug-shoulders:

lil96 · Aug 11, 2008

if you take it to adac or whereever you rented it[they] from they should be able to properly install it.

I have to agree I have never heard of ffing at 6 mo, 9 months yes, 6 months no. (not saying I think either are ok though)

lenats31 · Aug 11, 2008

Unregistered said:
European car seats suck. The first time we went to the UK by DS was still in his infant seat so we brought it with us. Second time we borrowed a seat from a friend which she installed in my sisters car. Badly. It was flopping all over the place, not safe at all. Since it didn't have LATCH (most seats don't there) it was a seatbelt install. My hubby managed to get it in properly but it was a struggle and my sister whined about it afterwards because she hurt her finger trying to get it out again. Well boohoo, you're not taking my kid out in the car if the seat isn't installed properly!

For the third time we bought a LATCH booster seat here (the cheap cosco one from Target) and mailed it over in advance. $50 to mail but it still cost significantly less than getting any sort of safe seat in the UK.

I know a kid who went through his parents wind shield because he undid his seatbelt and they didn't stop to make him buckle it again. In most US states he'd have still been in some sort of car seat and would most likely still be alive today. It's a hassle getting the right safety gear sometimes but so worth it.

You´ll need to take a closer look at the seats thereon your next visit, because you are wrong about the no-locking-clip thing. German seats, British seats and Scandinavian seats have locking clips firmly fixed on the car restraints instead of some that dangle from somewhere behind the seat or the side. OR is sold seperately.

Regarding booster seats: A rapidly growing number of them come with ISOFIX.

I don´t know how many toddler seats come with ISOFIX

I have a Regent seat. The seatbelt system in newer cars sold in Denmark are legal to use without a locking clip with the Regent.

ISOFIX is a rigid version of LATCH and is tested to the same weight limit. Personally, I have one Regent, one Römer Kidfix (you guessed it: ISOFIX HBB), a regular Römer King TS Plus FF car seat to 18 kg/40 lbs seat belt installed seat with inbuilt locking clips. The best seat we have is The Britax Multi-Tech - also belt installed seat. But it RFs to 55 lbs. One of the reasons that it RFs for so long is the seat belt installation. This seat has inbuilt locking clips too. as do all the rest of these RF seats. Some go from 0-55 lbs others from 20-55 lbs or 40 lbs.

By the way: Standards Australia have tested LATCH and ISOFIX and compared the results: Standards Australia are in the process of finding a system that will make car seat installation easier and minimize the risks of faulty installations. They found that ISOFIX provided better protection than LATCH.

This is ISOFIX on our booster seat:

Lena

lenats31 · Aug 11, 2008

Morganthe said:
Looking at the instructions, the seat appears to have its own belt securing system including a belt clamp to lock down before you flip the seat back into place.

Why would you need a locking clip with it? And how would you use it safely? :scratcheshead:

QUOTE]

This is the seat we have (Römer King TS Plus) same seat. This seat (and the rest of them) have a belt clamp that you´ll need to push down in order to firmly secure the seat belt to the base of the seat. Plus, you have fixed lock offs on both sides of the seat. There is no need to use a 3. lock off.

This is the thing about the seats overhere. They have at least two built-in lock offs. many have three. they are not sold seperately. And the seat belts in our cars DO lock.

lena

susant · Aug 12, 2008

I agree that my non-infant car seat has a built in locking clip.

But my new infant seat, the Maxi Cosi Cabrio Fix doesn't. It just has a belting route.

And I'm not sure my 99 suburban has the right seat belts.....

Here is a link to how they say to put the car in.....

http://www.maxi-cosi.com/maxicosi/instructions.aspx?id=6

Should I be using a locking clip???? Or be pulling my seat belt all the way (will it lock then?)

Any help on this?

Sue

Morganthe · Aug 12, 2008

susant said:
I agree that my non-infant car seat has a built in locking clip.

But my new infant seat, the Maxi Cosi Cabrio Fix doesn't. It just has a belting route.

And I'm not sure my 99 suburban has the right seat belts.....

Here is a link to how they say to put the car in.....

http://www.maxi-cosi.com/maxicosi/instructions.aspx?id=6

Should I be using a locking clip???? Or be pulling my seat belt all the way (will it lock then?)

Any help on this?

With Maxi-Cosi, if you would like English instructions, I've found it's easy to go to Maxi-cosi.com, Select Country as Netherlands & click on the English link.

Link directly to CabrioFix Vid Instructions in English.

You can lock your seatbelt, but the system is designed to sit properly with the seatbelt around the Cabrio like that in your vehicle.
Do NOT use a locking clip!
The instructions emphasize handle UP, proper placement with the belt & hooks, and ensuring your seatbelt is tight. There is a belt route, but it's around the entire seat.

If anything, your belts might not be long enough.
PDF Manual in English, p. 13, provides diagrams and a bit more information, including the fact that the seat might not fit in all vehicles due to placement of the seatbelts as too high or too forward. You're supposed to see your dealer if you're having trouble making it work.

You can also purchase the optional ISOFIX bases shown on the main Cabrio Fix page. I don't know if the distance between the anchors is identical in a US specs vehicle, but you'd be able to just 'click in' the seat.

hth

lil96 · Aug 12, 2008

Morganthe said:
I don't know if the distance between the anchors is identical in a US specs vehicle, but you'd be able to just 'click in' the seat.

hth

from what I have heard, the big dif between latch and isofix is that all isofix is the same distance, whereas latch differs from car to car, which is why they have belts and not the hard stuff, kwim?

I am confused by Susan, is she in USA/canada or EU?

Morganthe · Aug 12, 2008

lil96 said:
I am confused by Susan, is she in USA/canada or EU?

I don't know if she's the Original Poster or not, but it sounds as if she's trying to fit a Euro seat in a US vehicle (99 Suburban).

lil96 · Aug 12, 2008

Morganthe said:
I don't know if she's the Original Poster or not, but it sounds as if she's trying to fit a Euro seat in a US vehicle (99 Suburban).

That is what I was thinking, but I just wanted to check

Question European car seats and locking clips

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