Talk on carseats given by Steven Levitt

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joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Do a search for Freakonomics here... I'll help you out if my computer quits acting wonky, but he's been totally disproven :thumbsup:
 

keri1292

Well-known member
He's all excited because the seat belted 3yo dummy didn't move as much. :confused:

Doesn't the movement mean more ride down time and less internal organs crashing into your insides???

If I saw this guy on the streets, someone would have to hold me back. :fencing:
 

laccaycol

Active member
Yeah notice he didnt talk about the internal injuries until he was asked and still didnt even have a good answer IMO. Uggg some people he didnt even talk about the kids that died in car seat if they were properly restrained or not. So how can he say the seat belt is better when he only talked about like it was some pill? That makes no since to me. I also never thought to myself that a bigger pill is better than a smaller pill he is weird and doesnt have all the angles like properly installed and internal injuries. Why didnt he even talk about those? Uggg dumb people like him make me go bonkers.:hitselfonhead:
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Indeed, it was filmed in 2005, when the first 'study' came out...yes, it's been totally disproven by CHOP since then. For every 100 kids that were severely injured (or killed, I can't get it to load), 28 would have walked away if they'd been in carseats.
His tests were utterly ridiculous... since when does a 3 yo sit still in a seatbelt?!?!?! What about side impacts and rollovers?!?!?!

He's just not got a leg to stand on...
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
Lots of threads in the archives here about it. There is certainly some validity to his claims, how much spin was added is still not clear. The fact that they never had their conclusions independently verified and never published their findings on such an important issue in a respected, peer-reviewed journal still leads me to believe there were some key flaws. What parents still need to ask is if the authors will be helping them care for a child paralyzed by seatbelt syndrome from the millions they've made on the hype this story generated for their book sales.

The sad part of this whole story is that not only didn't the authors take it seriously enough to have their conclusions verified, but the CPS community never really directly refuted their claims. Still leaves me wondering about both sides of the story.

Of one thing I am almost certain, a 2-4 year old child in a correctly installed and used 5-point harness seat and a newer vehicle is going to be much safer than one using a lap belt or lap/shoulder belt. Their study ignored proper use as well.
 

jnj_hill

New member
I love that he is being demonized for reporting what he found in data. He doesn't have some anti-carseat agenda. He analyzed data and reported the results. He even admits near the end of the video that he would like to work with authors who have found conflicting results. By the way, the work on fatality rates was published in a peer-reviewed journal here. I don't think he published the work on injuries.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
I love that he is being demonized for reporting what he found in data. He doesn't have some anti-carseat agenda. He analyzed data and reported the results. He even admits near the end of the video that he would like to work with authors who have found conflicting results. By the way, the work on fatality rates was published in a peer-reviewed journal here. I don't think he published the work on injuries.

It's a free country. Anyone is free to listen to his advice and put a 2 year old in a lap and shoulder belt, despite the advice of the government, the American Academy of Pediatrics and countless advocates and crash testing experts. Similarly, others are free to be critical of his advice and prefer the data generated by The Partners for Child Passenger Safety, the NHTSA and other organizations.

I didn't realize he had finally gotten around to publishing his report, though odd that it would not be in a journal devoted to pediatrics or injury prevention, where most such data is reviewed. It's easy to say you will work with other people, actually doing it seems to be the difficult part. In correspondence with Mr. Levitt a few years ago, I suggested he get together with a couple highly respected pediatric physicians with expertise in child passenger safety. They were even on staff at his own university, the University of Chicago. His response was, "I don't know the folks you mention, but I'll keep an eye out for them." They're still on staff. I wonder if he ever worked with them?

http://www.uchicagokidshospital.org/physicians/mindy-statter.html
http://pediatrics.uchicago.edu/SectionFacultyDetail.aspx?ID=2068

I pray he will never have to depend on Dr. Statter's expertise in treating seatbelt syndrome injuries at his local pediatric trauma center. She gives presentations on the topic. They are quite gruesome in some cases :-(
 

jnj_hill

New member
It's a free country. You are free to listen to his advice and put your 2 year old in a lap and shoulder belt, despite the advice of the government, the American Academy of Pediatrics and countless advocates and crash testing experts. Similarly, others are free to be critical of his advice and prefer the data generated by The Partners for Child Passenger Safety, the NHTSA and other organizations.

I didn't realize he had finally gotten around to publishing his report, though odd that it would not be in a journal devoted to pediatrics or injury prevention, where most such data is reviewed. It's easy to say you will work with other people, actually doing it seems to be the difficult part. In correspondence with Mr. Levitt a few years ago, I suggested he get together with a couple highly respected pediatric physicians with expertise in child passenger safety. They were even on staff at his own university, the University of Chicago. His response was, "I don't know the folks you mention, but I'll keep an eye out for them." They're still on staff. I wonder if he ever worked with them?

http://www.uchicagokidshospital.org/physicians/mindy-statter.html
http://pediatrics.uchicago.edu/SectionFacultyDetail.aspx?ID=2068

I don't look at his work as "advice" at all -- just data. I suspect he published in an economics journal because he's an economist.

I also think it's a law in my state to have a 2-year-old in a seat, so that's where they'll be. I'm also a "better safe than sorry" kind of person, so I'll have my kids in a seat until someone proves to me that a lap and shoulder belt is actually more safe than a harness.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
I don't look at his work as "advice" at all -- just data. I suspect he published in an economics journal because he's an economist.

Then you missed his concluding advice in the original article -

"It may be that the ultimate benefit of car seats and booster seats is that they force children to sit still in the back seat. If so, perhaps there is a different contraption that could help accomplish the same goal for roughly the same price: a back-seat DVD player."

If even one child lost a life or suffered serious injury because his speculation was wrong, that's a real shame. If he proves to be right, then we were all duped. Wouldn't be the first time. Heck, we spend hundreds of billions and many lives on wars we were duped to believe were necessary, what's a few hundred million on child restraints?

I also think it's a law in my state to have a 2-year-old in a seat, so that's where they'll be.

It would be interesting to know if Mr. Levitt and Mr. Dubner put their money where their mouth is, or if their book proceeds are insufficient to pay for a violation of state law on occupant restraints ($75 I believe).

I'm also a "better safe than sorry" kind of person, so I'll have my kids in a seat until someone proves to me that a lap and shoulder belt is actually more safe than a harness.

And more importantly, more safe than a properly installed and used child restraint with a 5-point harness.
 

jnj_hill

New member
Then you missed his concluding advice in the original article -

"It may be that the ultimate benefit of car seats and booster seats is that they force children to sit still in the back seat. If so, perhaps there is a different contraption that could help accomplish the same goal for roughly the same price: a back-seat DVD player."

If even one child lost a life or suffered serious injury because his speculation was wrong, that's a real shame. If he proves to be right, then we were all duped. Wouldn't be the first time. Heck, we spend hundreds of billions and many lives on wars we were duped to believe were necessary, what's a few hundred million on child restraints?

That quote isn't in the published paper, and in your correspondence he told you that remark was "tongue-in-cheek" (if I remember correctly).


It would be interesting to know if Mr. Levitt and Mr. Dubner put their money where their mouth is, or if their book proceeds are insufficient to pay for a violation of state law on occupant restraints ($75 I believe).

It would be interesting to know for sure, but I suspect that they both (at least) obey the law.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
That quote isn't in the published paper

It was in the original article that started the hype, that appeared in the NY Times-

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/m...15200&en=641c83d4b0668293&ei=5070&oref=slogin

and in your correspondence he told you that remark was "tongue-in-cheek" (if I remember correctly).

What is important is whether or not he told that to all the New York Times readers and those parents who picked up his advice in syndication.

Tongue-in-cheek is great for personal communications. It's not so great when it appears as a conclusion relevant to child safety in an article published in a major, national newspaper.


It would be interesting to know for sure, but I suspect that they both (at least) obey the law.

That would indeed be a nice safety net to have, in case they are wrong.
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
I guess I would have trouble holding him responsible for the stupidity of others.

If someone wants to be respected as a credible author, it may be a good start to assume their readers aren't stupid.

In any case, while critical of this report, I have said a number of times that I am also critical of the response from statisticians in the field of child passenger safety.

As far as I know, this was the most relevant response from some very highly regarded researchers in a respected journal:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/m...story/06-05-2006/0004374684&EDATE=Jun+5,+2006

Even so, it doesn't really discuss the discrepancy with the FARS data. It's like they ignore each other instead of having both parties being interested in finding out the truth. It's a moot point now since PCPS is no longer funded.

What I would like to see is a study of 2-4 year olds who are restrained properly using a 5-point harness in model year 2000 and newer vehicles vs. those 2-4 year olds who use a seat belt alone. Both for fatalities and serious injuries. We can't help those who are looking for an excuse to buy a DVD player instead of a child seat. On the other hand, Car-Seat.Org readers are not stupid and I'm sure their children are generally have far less misuse than the average parent. Guess I need a study for that, too!
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
I guess I would have trouble holding him responsible for the stupidity of others.

"We all know car seats can protect children in car crashes, but an innovative economist says a DVD player and seat belt can also do a good job. Here's how:"

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=1842987&page=1

Clearly the authors believe it enough to have made headlines at least twice. Perhaps not enough to put their own children to the test, if only due to those pesky laws that protect people from their own stupidity;-)
 

jnj_hill

New member
"We all know car seats can protect children in car crashes, but an innovative economist says a DVD player and seat belt can also do a good job. Here's how:"

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=1842987&page=1

Clearly the authors believe it enough to have made headlines at least twice. Perhaps not enough to put their own children to the test, if only due to those pesky laws that protect people from their own stupidity;-)

From the same article...

"So what's a parent to do about all this? Well, you still have to obey the law and strap your kids in. Take advantage of the 24,000 trained car seat inspectors who will teach you to do it right."
 

SafeDad

CPSDarren - Admin
Staff member
From the same article...

"So what's a parent to do about all this? Well, you still have to obey the law and strap your kids in. Take advantage of the 24,000 trained car seat inspectors who will teach you to do it right."

Now THAT is awesome advice!

You know, there's another way to put their money where their mouth is. I wonder if any of those book proceeds have gone to lobbyists or grass roots efforts to repeal that pesky law. I mean, with bulletproof statistics and lots of money, it's a political sure thing.
 

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