News New European research - kids should RF up till four years

southpawboston

New member
The problem with that argument is that even in the 40s, five-year-olds could only stand still for an average of three minutes. To me that says there was never a time since the invention of seatbelts when it was reasonable to expect most 4-year-olds to be able to sit properly in boosters for any but the shortest of trips.

but you are comparing sitting still with standing, which are two very different things. i remember when, as a kid, i had to go to midnight mass with my family on christmas. sometimes it was standing room only. it was like torture having to stand for 45 minutes. but it's not torture having to sit for 45 minutes. (in fact i used to fall asleep sitting through midnight mass :whistle:-- it's pretty impossible to sleep standing, unless you're a horse ;)). it's much easier to control your body when you're seated at rest than when you're standing.

if, in that study, they had asked the kids to do some other focus-oriented task while sitting, the results might have been measured in much longer intervals than a few minutes.
 
ADS

UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
if, in that study, they had asked the kids to do some other focus-oriented task while sitting, the results might have been measured in much longer intervals than a few minutes.

I agree that kids should be able to sit still longer than they can stand still. OTOH, the nature of riding in a car may actually encourage kids to move out of position--to look at things as they go by or to reach things or to interact with other people in the vehicle, for example.

But what if they fall asleep? My ds is bretty good in a booster until he falls asleep and leans out of it.

Some of the boosters with deep "side impact protection" wings may be relatively easy to sleep in. My 8 year old is more likely to sit still while sleeping in her Parkway than while awake in it. :shrug-shoulders: Locking the belt (switchable retractor) may also help with this issue.
 

Adventuredad

New member
There are other things which children "fail" to learn because they aren't developmentally ready to learn them. My 9-month-old isn't walking yet. Is that a failure on my part? Should I have been maintaining a strict training schedule from the day she was born in order to encourage her to walk earlier?

That's an unfair comment and way below the belt. I'm very disappointed to hear something like that from someone as respected as you Ulrike. We're talking about things/skills that are REASONABLE. My daughter is 23 months old, I don't expect her to read, play tennis, or be fully potty trained. That would not be reasonable. Walking at 9 months is certainly possible but far from normal. Your 9-month old should be walking before 18-ish months, that would be normal and reasonable

Is it reasonable for a 4-5 to be able to sit still? Absolutely, although obviously not all day long. I rate this far down compared to other things kids learn at this age. My son is 4.5 years old and just an normal child. He's raised tri-lingually and can speak three languages right now. This is normal development for a child of his age. He can also do many other completely normal things which are not easy to learn. I really think we're expecting way to little from parents/children if sitting relatively still can't be taught. I've taught my son to ask me before he takes of the seat belt and also remind me when he's not fasteend (I'm not proud of it but I do sometimes forget:mad:).


Since AD's argument is "PErsonally I don't think there is any problem with 4-year old-ish US kids in booster", I disagree. I do NOT think it is valid.

Poor choice of words from my side (as usual). My "personal opinions" are based on leading experts in the field with the most experience and also an outstanding safety record. Scandinavia and US are different but also alike in many ways. We're both advanced Western nations with lots of choices. Comparing kids, and their ability to sit still, is not like looking at Sweden compared to Tanzania.

T
he problem with that argument is that even in the 40s, five-year-olds could only stand still for an average of three minutes. To me that says there was never a time since the invention of seatbelts when it was reasonable to expect most 4-year-olds to be able to sit properly in boosters for any but the shortest of trips.

Aren't we putting just a little much faith in this survey? Maybe there are other surveys which are less extreme. I really don't get it, why can't parents make their kids sit still in the booster? It's not a problem over here, not even among my sons most hyper active friends. Car seat safety is important, kids are asked to sit still and if they can't they are trained/taught to do so. If kids are moving around like worms all the time, Sweden would have a lousy safety record since we only use belt positioning boosters after 4 years of age.

However, I fail to see any evidence whatsoever that it is reasonable to expect most 4-year-olds to sit still in a booster for trips longer than about 5 minutes without constant adult supervision.

I strongly disagree and don't see this in real life. The friends I have in different countries (Germany, Norway, US, Mexico, Columbia, Australia, Venezuela, Bolibia and a bunch more) don't have this problem.

If 4-year olds can't sit still for more than a couple of minutes I'm curious to know what people do in real life. What happens at the dinner table/school/kindergarten/day care, etc?

I humbly think we're expecting too little from parents and kids if this can't be solved.

But what if they fall asleep? My ds is bretty good in a booster until he falls asleep and leans out of it.

My son sleeps all the time in the booster and SIP keeps him upright. The seat is also not leaning forward so he doesn't fall forward.

I agree that kids should be able to sit still longer than they can stand still. OTOH, the nature of riding in a car may actually encourage kids to move out of position--to look at things as they go by or to reach things or to interact with other people in the vehicle, for example.

Interaction as in talking is certainly fine but of course kids must be told/asked to not play around. Again, this is up to parents. I disagree that it's in any way "encouraging" though. We don't drive longer than 90 min-2 hours max with the kids without taking a break (my daughter is impatient) and find longer periods than that to be boring for the kids.
 

christineka

New member
I know a bunch of kids that can't sit still at church. I have the best behaved kids when it comes to church. I don't bring toys or food for the over 2 year olds. They are expected to sit. They get pretty good at obeying the rules by age 4-5. The rest of the kids are fed candy or lunch and given toys to play with and stuff to draw with. The parents let their kids wander around visiting other people. It seems that when little is required, children don't learn to control themselves. My 5 year old sits so nicely in church that he occasionally falls asleep. We have turboboosters. I guess I should find a way to invest in Parkways so we don't have sleeping issues? Why can't better sip boosters cost under $100?
 

Adventuredad

New member
We don't go to church often but with my son it's easy. My daughter, well..... she's still a bit too young, restless, and impatient although she's gotten a lot calmer. Really OT question, but at what age did you start taking your kids to church. Just curious
 

momtoirs

Member
If 4-year olds can't sit still for more than a couple of minutes I'm curious to know what people do in real life. What happens at the dinner table/school/kindergarten/day care, etc?

I humbly think we're expecting too little from parents and kids if this can't be solved.

I teach in an early childhood program. I work with 3-5 year olds. I know that Adventuredad has excluded the kids that I work directly with (special needs -- usually autism) from his discussion, but I see the kids and talk to the teachers in the other early childhood classrooms in our site and in our district.

I work long and hard with my students on sitting for meals, for activities, etc. Its definitely one of our big goals because of how directly it impacts their future school success. But, for many of them, they will or should have more support in a vehicle than a booster.

I also see the other preschool aged children in our building. The ones who don't have autism or other special education needs. Some can sit for meals, circle, table, and other activities, but not all. Again, its a priority that teachers are working on. Some children do not sit for meals because there is no table to sit at in the home. We have families with 6 or more children in 2-bedroom apartments or have families who are doubled up with another family. These families might have a couch or something to sit on, but far more important to many of these families than their kids sitting for a meal is that their kids GET a meal or some sort of food. Some families may have a place to sit for meals, but because they are busy working FT, caring for a elderly parent, special needs sibling, etc., meals might be pretty unstructured and on the fly. Many of these same kids also come to school with a lot of stored up energy because they have no safe place to move their bodies or no opportunities to move their bodies. They find ways to move, but not always the safest times, places, or ways to move. For these children, sitting is a skill that comes, sometimes slowly, and often not by age 4.

We have several 4-year-old classrooms in my school building, in addition to the early childhood special classrooms. We have a whole lot of children who are not able to sit still even for short periods of time at the beginning of the school year. Many/most? do learn this skill over the course of the year, but that still puts them closer to or over 5 years old. Many are still unable to do it for longer periods of time. For shorter trips, these kids might do okay in a booster -- as they approach 5, but not when they are 4. For those kids who do not attend a 4-year-old program, there are a large number who start kindergarten who don't yet know how to sit.

Yes, perhaps its that their parents haven't taught them to sit. But, when you need to make sure that your child has food and shelter, sitting still might not be high on your list. We don't know what parents are dealing with at home -- they may be working FT, caring for a special needs sibling or an elderly/ill parent, have some other situation in their lives that make it difficult for them to make sitting still a priority. Some are going to be able to do this, others are going to need more help to teach their children some of these skills that seem so basic.

I think that one thing that we can all agree on is that we need to have both options for this age group that are easy to use and affordable. Some 4-year-olds are going to do just fine in a good booster seat. Others, even those without special needs, are going to need a larger harnessed seat.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
I think that one thing that we can all agree on is that we need to have both options for this age group that are easy to use and affordable. Some 4-year-olds are going to do just fine in a good booster seat. Others, even those without special needs, are going to need a larger harnessed seat.

I think that's a good conclusion.

Just want to add, that people with a single (developmentally normal) child in the back seat aren't having the same experience that those of us with two or more kids sitting in the backseat have. Either of my kids is fine when riding alone, but put them both back there and there's a great deal of leaning, hitting, looking at the same toys, looking out the window on the other side....there's just no judging what other families are experiencing based on your own family's experience.
 

Adventuredad

New member
Just want to add, that people with a single (developmentally normal) child in the back seat aren't having the same experience that those of us with two or more kids sitting in the backseat have. Either of my kids is fine when riding alone, but put them both back there and there's a great deal of leaning, hitting, looking at the same toys, looking out the window on the other side....there's just no judging what other families are experiencing based on your own family's experience.

Very good point:thumbsup: Two kids in the back is more of a challenge

sitting still might not be high on your list.

You make some good points with a healthy perspective. I know that parents don't feel sitting still in the car, or car safety in general, is a high priority. And that's a big part of the problem. Many of todays parents totally freak out about the things which are statistically of low importance. Everyone is worried about pedophiles in the park, kidnappings, and/or lead painted toys. Not so many are evern thinking about the number one killer which is traffic.

So, making kids sit still doesn't seem to be a priority but it would probably be a good idea to dedicate a little more effort for this.
 

christineka

New member
I also have the three across situation. My 5 year old thinks it is his duty to bug his younger siblings. (I now have him between the older two.) If I put him in a booster he'd have to move next to one of the younger ones due to having middle lap belts. When he was in a booster he'd lean over to bug people. I tell him to stop and such, but I'm driving. I can't go back there and stop him and neither can I keep a diligent eye on him while driving. He sits in a booster in the car. Usually it is just him being transported. Sometimes a little kid comes and the seat is on the opposite side, so no bugging opportunity.

If I didn't have to sit kids next to each other, sitting still wouldn't be an issue.

In general, parents seem to think jumping around the car is normal. I see it all the time with kids not in seats. My neighbor's kid (then age 7 or 8) actually fell out of the car (front seat), scrubbing his arm on the street all because he wanted to be out first and started opening the door (seatbelt removed) before the car got to the driveway. It blows my mind that parents don't chasten their kids for stupid stuff. I talk to the kids if someone unbuckles before I turn the engine off.
 

Kat_Momof3

New member
and about the sleeping... my oldest had a mild scoliosis... he couldn't sleep in a booster well in my van (though he had in our sedan, which had seriously slanted and reclined seats) until he outgrew the Regent, even with the vehicle seat reclined the allowed amount.

I've however heard of other kids this age, even without the scoliosis, having this problem.

So don't assume that because the seat isn't leaning forward means that is the reason your son can stay in position when sleeping.
 

Adventuredad

New member
You can make fun of me, it's alright, I'm a big boy. I'm actually half American since I've spent about half my life in US but live in Sweden now. I'm probably annoying, too straightforward, and possibly an ***hole at times.

For the past 15 years I've been working in an extremely intense Wall Street environment where direct communication (read screaming), straightforward answers (read be brutally honest and often insulting), and no BS is the only way to survive and not lose millions in a few seconds. This behavior has consequences, many of them not so good. The very first thing someone told me my first day of work was "Don't take anything personally". I don't but know most do (and probably should)

When outside work it's often difficult to imagine other people don't think the same way. This leads to many awkward situations privately regarding communication. I'm working on it but it's not easy to change. English as a second language doesn't do wonders either, answers are not eloquent like others.

Maybe I should put something in my siggy, warning others about being so annoying:whistle:
 

BookMama

Senior Community Member
Thanks for the insight, Adventuredad! :thumbsup: I always find that knowing more about a person (if they choose to share) helps me understand them better.
 
great study...very scary but great.
i thimk that a bit more should have gone into finding stats withproperly used restraints but then again not many restraints are properly used.
i also have to say i agree with the thought that the US is too lax in its child restraint laws. cops have the right to ticket for children not being restrained but you rarely seen it done. i think that the governement needs to step up and enforce these laws we have..not only that but they need to make one standard acriss the country. i think its ridiculous i can legally (not safely) travel with my 3 yr old in a car seatbelt in one state howevewr the next state my child under 6 needs to be in a child restraint, then i can go teo more states and my chuld needs to be 8yr 80 lbs or whatever. they are the same cars, same seats so why it is thought safe in one state yet not another.
not only does our government fail us there but then again by allowing seats that are constantly miused to continue to be sold. 3pt harness infant seats, misleading information on packaging ( we had a discussion on my local freecycle cafe and a women today said her seats harnessed to 100 lbs...no she had those horrible harness to 40 booster to 100, but there was that misleading tag...her 55lb son was riding around in the harness of one)i think we are dong our part to educate people but that someone higher up needs to step up and do it.
as a pp said how many children have to die before something is done. also you see these parents who lose their kids and instead of punishing them for failing to protect that child...they slap them on the wrist and send them on their way feeling they have suffered enough. well perhaps they have but lets make an example out of them...so others will take it more seriously.
i think americans are to stuck in the "it can't happen to me" frame of mind to learn from another persons loss. however once jail or loss of freedom in thrown in they are more receptive.
oh and i think adventure dad hits the nail on the head when he says the US lacks parenting...we do its obvious watch our news, kids shooting kids, running people over and driving away, guns in school, fighting....there is no excuse is lazy parents who would rather let their child do what makes them happy then listen to them. teach the young and they will obey and respect you.
not syaing that all 4 yr olds are mature enough for boosters but they shoudl be able to listen to how to sit in that booster and tell you how even if they can't stay there
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
not syaing that all 4 yr olds are mature enough for boosters but they shoudl be able to listen to how to sit in that booster and tell you how even if they can't stay there

True enough. However, one situation I feel needs to be addressed, regardless of parenting and/or the child's ability to follow directions, is the fact that children of this age still frequently fall asleep in the car. All three of my kiddos have been able to sit properly in a booster seat for short rides starting at about 3.5yo. Until they fall asleep. Then all bets are off and it has nothing to do with them misbehaving. They are just little people who habitually fall asleep on any ride more than 20 mins long (which is just about every ride). For us, this stage doesn't really pass until around 9-10 years old. Granted, our "good" boosters (BG, Confidence) provide better support for sleepers than our "OK" boosters (older style TB, and a couple of no-backs), as does the ability to lock the belts, but I still have to frequently reach back to readjust them as the fall deeper into the floppy stage of sleep.
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,655
Messages
2,196,895
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top