I spoke with Learning Curve.....have answers

azgirl71 · May 1, 2008

Ok Tamara called me back today.

1. The manual has been revised and you can use position 1,2,and 3 for RF :thumbsup:. The engineers wanted to make sure that no one would use position 1 FF.

2. She sent my email the engineers about the 45 degree angle. They said they want it to be used at a 45 degree angle

. She said if a parent made the choice to use it more upright than 45 degrees that was thier right. However, it would not be acceptable by the manufacturer.

So there you have it. Hope this helps.

I have her direct email now and she said if there are other questions to let her know. It may take a few days to get back with me if she has to contact the engineers.

TechnoGranola · May 1, 2008

I don't know what vehicle you'd get it installed in at a 45 degree angle WITH the headrest, assuming you wanted your front passengers/driver not to have to eat their knees! With that requirement, they are edging people to install FF sooner as people will want to reclaim their front seat room.

azgirl71 · May 1, 2008

Center install with bucket seats in front or a fold down console in front is about all I can think of. Of course that will only be if the TF headrest will fit between the seats. It is allowed to touch the seat. I can get 45 degrees in my truck.

firemomof3 · May 1, 2008

Thanks so much for getting all that great info!! With that, my daughter will probably be rf till she's 4!! :thumbsup:

aisraeltax · May 1, 2008

yeh, so my choice (after 22 lbs.) is to install against manufactures directions or FF my kids.

honestly, i dont know. i am one of those ppl that really want to use the seat the way it was designed to be used. and i just got 2 of these. considering they arent available anymore at the price i paid, im thinking of selling them to fund a MA or BV...at least i can install those in the 2nd vehicle per manufacturer's directions.

firemomof3 · May 1, 2008

aisraeltax said:
yeh, so my choice (after 22 lbs.) is to install against manufactures directions or FF my kids. honestly, i dont know. i am one of those ppl that really want to use the seat the way it was designed to be used. and i just got 2 of these. considering they arent available anymore at the price i paid, im thinking of selling them to fund a MA or BV...at least i can install those in the 2nd vehicle per manufacturer's directions.

I did the exact same thing. I ordered 2 of them because for $99 I just couldn't help myself! But now, I'm selling 1 of them because I replaced it with the signo. I also loved the boulevard though!

solmama · May 1, 2008

I'm wondering...did they mean 45 with the top on or off? Or both? I could understand not compromising with the infant portion of the seat, but with the top portion on?

I purchased this seat because I'm at my end with the EFTA. The red tabs cause my ds pain by rubbing on his neck. I think keeping my ds rear-facing at a slightly lesser angle, at this point, is safer than the alternative. I cannot have it at 45 degree angle or my dh and I will have to eat the steering wheel. And I won't keep him in the EFTA because I can't stand the screaming on long trips! Argh!

azgirl71 · May 1, 2008

solmama said:
I'm wondering...did they mean 45 with the top on or off? Or both? I could understand not compromising with the infant portion of the seat, but with the top portion on?

I purchased this seat because I'm at my end with the EFTA. The red tabs cause my ds pain by rubbing on his neck. I think keeping my ds rear-facing at a slightly lesser angle, at this point, is safer than the alternative. I cannot have it at 45 degree angle or my dh and I will have to eat the steering wheel. And I won't keep him in the EFTA because I can't stand the screaming on long trips! Argh!

It is 45 degrees both way.

I suggest people start bombarding Learning Curve with this complaint. Maybe the engineers will re think things.

azgirl71 · May 1, 2008

firemomof3 said:
Thanks so much for getting all that great info!! With that, my daughter will probably be rf till she's 4!! :thumbsup:

YW

tl01 · May 1, 2008

What do the techs think about using the seat at less than a 45 degree angle? The angle marker on the seat that "must" be parallel with the ground is so steep that I can't imagine my son would be willing to sit in the seat that reclined. I would hate to stop using this sit b/c we love it... ARG!

snowbird25ca · May 1, 2008

tl01 said:
What do the techs think about using the seat at less than a 45 degree angle? The angle marker on the seat that "must" be parallel with the ground is so steep that I can't imagine my son would be willing to sit in the seat that reclined. I would hate to stop using this sit b/c we love it... ARG!

Disclaimers first, :thumbsup:

I have not seen a True Fit IRL yet because they're not in Canada just yet (few weeks hopefully.)
I have read the manual
I will not tell parents to go against the manual

Now the rest of what I have to say,

The dynamic test standard for a rf'ing seat requires that the seat not rotate past the point of 70* measured from vertical. (dynamic test is the actual crash test portion.) This 70* maximum is the same for both FMVSS and CMVSS seats. :thumbsup:

So from a standards perspective, I'd have troubles understanding why a more upright install would be a problem, unless they're concerned about people flipping the foot from the rf'ing position to the ff'ing position to get a more upright install.

But like I said, I don't have hands on experience with the seat and wouldn't advocate going directly against a manual. I would put it fully into the parental decision category though, and as a parent would most likely install it more upright for my own kids.

solmama · May 1, 2008

Here are some pics...does this look okay? Yes, my kids are goofy!

tl01 · May 1, 2008

solmama said:
Here are some pics...does this look okay? Yes, my kids are goofy!

While I"m not a tech, I"m going to say it is not reclined enough. Check the red line on the side of the seat. It is supposed to be parallel with the ground. My seat appears to be more reclined than yours and the line is no where close to being parallel with the ground. I almost think that using the line as guidance would make the seat too reclined.

snowbird25ca · May 1, 2008

tl01 said:
While I"m not a tech, I"m going to say it is not reclined enough. Check the red line on the side of the seat. It is supposed to be parallel with the ground. My seat appears to be more reclined than yours and the line is no where close to being parallel with the ground. I almost think that using the line as guidance would make the seat too reclined.

I'm in 100% agreement that in almost all cases using the line for guidance results in an over-reclined seat. I see this alot with the infant seats that have lines instead of bubble indicators, and convertible seats with lines on them.

It looks like the seat is reclined enough for your son. I can't tell if the line is level to the ground or not... like I said, I think the 45* angle falls into parental decision category though, and if you have the info to make the decision - ie how seats are crash tested rf'ing, then I think it's fairly easy to make an educated decision on this particular issue.

It's also worth mentioning that Cosco seats have a level to ground line, and the manuals make no mention of a seat being more upright with older kids too, but the eventual answer from Cosco was that older kids could be more upright. This falls into a different category since the TF engineers are saying keep it at a 45* angle - my guess would be that the seat just naturally installs at a 45* angle on the test bench and that's the reasoning behind them staying stick to 45*. Or maybe it's to prevent parents from trying to make the seat too upright.

It seems to me that they have made an effort to try to make the seat easy to use and understand, and as a result have missed some of the finer details and led to increased confusion... I think the which positions are allowed rf'ing is a case in point in that aspect anyways...

BTW - Lisa, I forgot to say thanks for calling and getting some reliable answers. Sometimes CSR aren't the most reliable, so it's wonderful to have info provided that's coming from a reliable source.

tl01 · May 1, 2008

I just enlarged the pic of the true fit and can see the red line. It looks quite sloped still. Assuming the pic was taken taken on level ground, I don't think it is reclined enough. I'd love to know what you figure out once you look at the seat though. Good luck!

aisraeltax · May 1, 2008

there is no way to get that line parallel w/ the ground in the car i want to install it in.

the person i spoke to earlier was very clear that the seat needed to be 45 degrees at all times.

i need to decide to let this go or just use the seat against the manufacturer's directions.

i think we should all be writing and calling TF though. but thats another issue for me....i really want to see how they deal with this issue. i was very impressed with Britax's response to the Frontier issue. i am curious whether TF reacts the same.

CaseyRN · May 1, 2008

I don't think the seat is reclined to 45 degrees but do not think it looks too upright. It looks to be between 30-45 degrees to me. I know, I know, I'm not a tech and the engineers say 45 degrees. I'm basing my opinion assuming the parental decision has been made to have it more upright than 45 degrees.

wendytthomas · May 1, 2008

solmama said:
Here are some pics...does this look okay? Yes, my kids are goofy!

Eyeballing it I'd say about 37 degrees. Which is more than enough for your son. I think the seat looks well installed. I don't think he's unsafe, and I think the seat will work quite well for him.

However, it's against manufacturer's instructions.

Parental decision.

(speaking as a parent rather than a tech, if it was Piper in your seat at that angle I'd be fine. Though she liked a 45 degree angle as an older kid).

Wendy

Kalinky · May 1, 2008

I think that "they" are not understanding the question about the 45 degree angle.

I think they are sticking to their guns of 45 degrees right now because that's what it should be for an infant, or child who hasn't gained head control yet. I don't think they are taking this scenario into account, with an OLDER child who CAN control their head and technically could be SAFER in a more upright position.

Page 133 of the Student Manual (Apr 2007) even states (regarding RF), "As baby ages and obtains better head control, he/she may sit more upright. This can actually provide for improved crash protection".

How can you refute a tried and true statement in the CPST curriculum?

I mean, I know that what they say goes, b/c they are the mfr, but....but......[*stomps feet and runs off whining*]

TechnoGranola · May 1, 2008

Kalinky said:
I think that "they" are not understanding the question about the 45 degree angle.

I think they are sticking to their guns of 45 degrees right now because that's what it should be for an infant, or child who hasn't gained head control yet. I don't think they are taking this scenario into account, with an OLDER child who CAN control their head and technically could be SAFER in a more upright position.

Page 133 of the Student Manual (Apr 2007) even states (regarding RF), "As baby ages and obtains better head control, he/she may sit more upright. This can actually provide for improved crash protection".

How can you refute a tried and true statement in the CPST curriculum?

I mean, I know that what they say goes, b/c they are the mfr, but....but......[*stomps feet and runs off whining*]

Great points, and I elect you to call and talk some sense into the engineers!

Please!

I spoke with Learning Curve.....have answers

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