are little passenger seats safe?

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fauroki

Guest
Hi - I own a ford escape and am considering purchasing the 'little passenger seat' which is a third row seat that you install into the floor of the back cargo area. The kids who would ride on this seat are ages 7 and 8. They would be facing out towards the back (heads towards the back).

There are so little statistics on rear car crashes that it's hard to tell if it's that much safer for me to just buy a minivan.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

Their web site says that the seats are safe but I'm looking to hear from others who have purchased and installed this seat -- or if anyone knows of any independent testing that has been done.
Many thanks!!
Kirsten
 
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joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
There aren't a lot of answers on the safety of these, the national CPS email list is full of experts on all types of crashes and even they don't really have an answer on these. If there is *NO* way to afford a vehicle that safely fits everyone in a family, then the rearfacing seats with headrests and shoulderbelts would be my recommendation. But I'd also have a lot of worry that the extra weight would significantly increase the rollover risk of a vehicle that already has a high rollover risk (not the Escape in general, but most SUVs are in this category). Plus, 'cargo space' is not safely reinforced the same way 'passenger space' is, so that would be another concern (no steel safety reinforcement cages to protect in a side crash). (Volvo, in contrast, has those third row rear facing seats for little kids, and they treat that space as passenger space, so it's reinforced).

:twocents::)
 

mylittlet

Senior Community Member
This was a topic lately on the cps yahoo group. This was posted by Merritt a CPST. It is about 4 years old, but has some great points to it.

I don't think any vehicle manufacturer would recommend these, although we have probaly all been asked to do so. In addition to the technical issues of detailed NHTSA requirements, these vehicles have not undergone the typical vehicle manufacturer' s testing with these added seats installed and occupied. There has been a lot of concern lately about 15-passenger van rollover, but the highway accident data shows that overloaded SUVs and minivans are just as likely to rollover as overloaded 15-passenger vans. Any vehicle is much more likely to rollover when fully loaded or overloaded than when carrying only the driver. A fully loaded Honda Odyssey minivan is just as likely to
rollover as a fully loaded 15-passenger van, but the minivan has fewer occupants and they are more likely to be wearing safety belts, so the chances of a multiple fatality rollever are much lower. If you add the weight of more seats and more occupants to any vehicle, particularly at the very back of the vehicle, the risk of rollover will increase, particularly if the vehicle wasn't designed to carry that many occupants.

Regards,
Paul W. Butler - Ford Advanced Safety & Regulations, 400 Fairlane
Plaza South
 

scatterbunny

New member
I would worry about the things Julie mentioned...higher rollover risk due to weight distribution problems, and the children would be sitting in, essentially, a crumple zone (a space designed to crush in on impact, to help absorb crash forces and allow the main passenger compartment to hopefully remain relatively intact).
 

LISmama810

Admin - CPS Technician
I want to echo what the PPs have said. I worry greatly about any non-approved added seating, especially in a crumple zone.

If you do get one, and it is a rear-facing one, remember that you cannot install a child restraint or booster on a rear-facing seat.
 

SusanMae

Senior Community Member
I too was thinking about the fact that you're going to put the seat and your children in an area that is designed to crush so that the passanger compartment gets as little intrusion as possible.

Also--the other seats in the vehicle are bolted to the frame...and I don't believe those seats are. So I wonder how they preform.

Are there crash standards for those seats?

Susan
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I am an engineer and many of the posts on here are pure emotional responses. The seats are safe as long as it is bolted to the sheet metal frame because 90% of your cars these days are what they call unibody construction. The back of a car is not a crumple zone, but the front is. Especially since many SUVs are build on the same frame as trucks. Please respond to articles that you know something about not just an emotional response that you heard from somebodies next door neighbors friends friend.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I am an engineer and many of the posts on here are pure emotional responses. The seats are safe as long as it is bolted to the sheet metal frame because 90% of your cars these days are what they call unibody construction. The back of a car is not a crumple zone, but the front is. Especially since many SUVs are build on the same frame as trucks. Please respond to articles that you know something about not just an emotional response that you heard from somebodies next door neighbors friends friend.

How can you definitively say that it is safe in every vehicle? Have you personally helped engineer every vehicle?

The back end of a vehicle is going to crumple if there's enough force in a collision, and if that were to happen, having passengers in that space is putting them at unnecessary risk.

As child passenger safety technicians, we are not speaking from a purely emotional viewpoint. There are genuine safety concerns that these seats pose as others have already posted. Until somebody can post a study saying that these seats have been tested in multiple vehicles and it doesn't increase the rollover risk or put the farthest back passengers at risk, we cannot recommend them. Part of the training CPST's go through is the structure of a vehicle and how it's designed to withstand crash forces. The simple fact is that when a vehicle is designed to have a "safe zone" for passengers, that back compartment isn't part of it. Some of the biggest determining factors in survivability in a collision is proper restraint use - for all passengers, and the degree of cabin intrusion. Cars are designed to have a passenger compartment that's reinforced and is the cage of the car so to speak. Putting kids into a cargo area is taking them outside the passenger tested space.

You can attach whatever emotions to that that you want, it doesn't change the fact that the seat isn't tested with the vehicle, and in the event of a rear impact collision, anyone seated there would be in a vehicle space that wasn't designed with passenger safety in mind. As an engineer you're likely well aware that each section of the vehicle is designed with different features for occupant protection. Those features aren't taking into account someone riding in a cargo area though. And that's not speculation, that's fact. :twocents:
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
I am an engineer and many of the posts on here are pure emotional responses. The seats are safe as long as it is bolted to the sheet metal frame because 90% of your cars these days are what they call unibody construction. The back of a car is not a crumple zone, but the front is. Especially since many SUVs are build on the same frame as trucks. Please respond to articles that you know something about not just an emotional response that you heard from somebodies next door neighbors friends friend.

Actually, the person quoted was NOT "somebodies next door neighbors friends friend" it was a top engineer for Ford and Volvo.

Secondly, the seats and seat belts in cars and trucks are NOT bolted directly to the sheet metal that makes up the unibody construction. They are bolted onto reinforced sections of steel that have been designed to be stronger. The whole idea of a unibody frame is to allow the metal of the body to deform and absorb crash forces so that the occupants experience less force. You would have to be a complete idiot to bolt a seat onto a part of the car that is DESIGNED to bend and deform.

Personally, I don't care if you are an engineer. I've done seat checks for engineers who have installed carseats with duct tape. Your degree doesn't mean squat unless you actually have real world experience working with the people who design cars for a living. Just to illustrate my point, the little people seats the OP is referring to was also designed and tested by so-called engineers. But if you look closely at the pictures on the web site, there are at least 3 SUVs shown as examples of "properly installed" seats that show the seat bolted onto the COVER FOR THE SPARE TIRE. Engineers, maybe. But I wouldn't trust my child's life to someone moronic enough to think that the spare tire cover is part of the body of the vehicle.

Finally, if you are going to come on here and post insulting comments, at least have the balls to wait to you are a registered user. You yourself lack a certain amount of credibility (dare I say you are about as trustworthy as "somebodies next door neighbors friends friend") when you don't even bother to identify yourself.
 

cpsaddict

New member
Actually, the person quoted was NOT "somebodies next door neighbors friends friend" it was a top engineer for Ford and Volvo.

Secondly, the seats and seat belts in cars and trucks are NOT bolted directly to the sheet metal that makes up the unibody construction. They are bolted onto reinforced sections of steel that have been designed to be stronger. The whole idea of a unibody frame is to allow the metal of the body to deform and absorb crash forces so that the occupants experience less force. You would have to be a complete idiot to bolt a seat onto a part of the car that is DESIGNED to bend and deform.

Personally, I don't care if you are an engineer. I've done seat checks for engineers who have installed carseats with duct tape. Your degree doesn't mean squat unless you actually have real world experience working with the people who design cars for a living. Just to illustrate my point, the little people seats the OP is referring to was also designed and tested by so-called engineers. But if you look closely at the pictures on the web site, there are at least 3 SUVs shown as examples of "properly installed" seats that show the seat bolted onto the COVER FOR THE SPARE TIRE. Engineers, maybe. But I wouldn't trust my child's life to someone moronic enough to think that the spare tire cover is part of the body of the vehicle.

Finally, if you are going to come on here and post insulting comments, at least have the balls to wait to you are a registered user. You yourself lack a certain amount of credibility (dare I say you are about as trustworthy as "somebodies next door neighbors friends friend") when you don't even bother to identify yourself.

:yeahthat:
I have a Ford Escape and if they meant for it to be a 7 passenger vehicle, I do believe they would have added a third row. Then again, this is just my emotions getting the best of me. Danged emotions anyway!;) I guess I shouldn't cry the next time an "engineer" comes to a check up event with their seat installed with bungee cords and 2 x 4's to level it(yes, this actually happened to me!:eek:).:whistle:
 

southpawboston

New member
The whole idea of a unibody frame is to allow the metal of the body to deform and absorb crash forces so that the occupants experience less force. You would have to be a complete idiot to bolt a seat onto a part of the car that is DESIGNED to bend and deform.

i'm not going to take either side here, but just wanted to point out that your idea of what a unibody frame is designed to do is incorrect. a unibody frame is designed to incorporate both a structural frame and a passenger shell into one unit. that's the definition. this does not mean that the unibody is designed to deform and absorb forces. you make it sound like the entire cabin is designed to deform. this is not the case. only the crumple zones--the extreme ends of the unibody--are designed to deform. the passenger compartment is designed to remain intact. and today's crumple zones are designed to be very compartmentalized, and not comprise the entire rear end of the vehicle like people here are suggesting. if that were the case, you wouldn't be seeing top tether anchors right below the rear hatch, as you see in many cars. think about it. :twocents:

but i agree that putting an extra seat in the rear of any vehicle that wasn't designed to have one as original equipment is probably not a good idea, simply because it wasn't tested that way.
 

sparkyd

Active member
This is going to be a little off-topic, but I'm sitting here laughing because my DH is an engineer and I can recognize "engineer syndrome" a mile away. For some reason some engineers seem to think they are experts on everything, simply because of that title. Doesn't even matter what kind of engineer they are or what they actually do for a living. They must be indoctrinated to think they are of superior intellect in school or something.

Instructions? Regulations? What do they know? I'm an engineer. I'm smarter than the idiot that designed this. I'll make it work my way. :rolleyes:

I am in charge of car seat installation in our house. The engineer isn't allowed near it. If he was, we would be one of those cases a PP mentioned with very "creative" installation technique.

Whenever anything is prefaced with "I'm an engineer..." all subsequent comment must be scrutinized for possible engineer syndrome. ;)
 

southpawboston

New member
Whenever anything is prefaced with "I'm an engineer..." all subsequent comment must be scrutinized for possible engineer syndrome. ;)

well as an engineer myself, i find myself needing to scrutinize a lot of the advice being dished out here as well :rolleyes:. i think there is a lot of CPST "syndrome" here as well :p. just because someone is a CPST doesn't give them the right to decide what's safe and what's unsafe in a car, they are only qualified to speak about carseat-related installations. all else is personal opinion. i've noticed that many CPSTs here don't even have a fundamental grasp of physics... i find that quite ironic, given they are "crash" experts.

just because i'm an engineer doesn't mean i don't follow rules... i in fact do (when i want to and when i feel they are prudent ;)). i also challenge rules that seem petty or foolish or ill-thought. that's the only way that progress in society is made, when the status quo is constantly challenged.

so let's take it easy on the engineer comments unless you're willing to have it dished out as well :D
 

Victorious4

Senior Community Member
well as an engineer myself, i find myself needing to scrutinize a lot of the advice being dished out here as well
Usually, I love that you contribute such perspectives to discussions, especially since you're one of the less arrogant engineers I've met :p (just picking on ya! kinda, LOL)

Anyway, I'd like to merely concede that it's true: as CPSTs we are not experts on vehicle design, but at least we're generally more knowledgeable about vehicle safety than your average car salesman! :whistle: When such questions are brought up we are obliged to answer with as much of an educated guess as we can, explaining our worries so that the individual can do further research into their options & we should also recommend that the individual contact their vehicle dealership/manufacturer before making any alterations to a vehicle....

What it boils down to is the fact that there's no way to trust the validity of anything someone claims to be here. It's about digging around, doing the necessary research. I personally would not put my children at risk by adding this product (the company who makes it has tested it, but it's not in NHTSA's or IIHS' data) unless there was absolutely no safer option within my means: I prefer riding the bus & walking to "jimmyrigging" a personal vehicle :eek:

When I lived in a more rural area, I actually did help my co-worker get one of these items. Their family was in the poverty bracket without any means to buy a larger vehicle, twins on the way & no public transportation. For them, this was the safest option. For most people, it's not :twocents:
 

southpawboston

New member
well put, papooses. :thumbsup: and i disagree with you on the arrogant part-- i can be *quite* arrogant and i know it ;). you're just being polite :).
 

skaterbabs

Well-known member
well put, papooses. :thumbsup: and i disagree with you on the arrogant part-- i can be *quite* arrogant and i know it ;). you're just being polite :).

YOU said it, we didn't. ;)

Like the others, some of the most.....interesting....installations I've ever seen were by engineers. :whistle:
 

safeinthecar

Moderator - CPS Technician
well as an engineer myself, i find myself needing to scrutinize a lot of the advice being dished out here as well :rolleyes:. i think there is a lot of CPST "syndrome" here as well :p. just because someone is a CPST doesn't give them the right to decide what's safe and what's unsafe in a car, they are only qualified to speak about carseat-related installations. all else is personal opinion. i've noticed that many CPSTs here don't even have a fundamental grasp of physics... i find that quite ironic, given they are "crash" experts.

just because i'm an engineer doesn't mean i don't follow rules... i in fact do (when i want to and when i feel they are prudent ;)). i also challenge rules that seem petty or foolish or ill-thought. that's the only way that progress in society is made, when the status quo is constantly challenged.

so let's take it easy on the engineer comments unless you're willing to have it dished out as well :D

I didn't take exception to the insulting poster being an engineer. I take exception to the poster using his/her engineering degree to justify coming on here and posting in a very insulting matter. Just because this person has a college degree doesn't mean they have license to be rude an condescending to other people that were trying to help the OP. It's not the title I have issues with, it's the "I 'm an engineer and the rest of the world is idiots" attitude.
 

sparkyd

Active member
well as an engineer myself, i find myself needing to scrutinize a lot of the advice being dished out here as well :rolleyes:.
...
so let's take it easy on the engineer comments unless you're willing to have it dished out as well :D

I hope it was clear that I was laughing the whole time I was making my comments. That engineer I was talking about is my husband and I love him dearly. He is also a very good electrical engineer; an expert in his field. His knowledge and training can come in very handy around the house, but it can also lead to great frustration on my part, as per my post. Sometimes I wish he wasn't an engineer, because for him all conversation (when we disagree on some project or other) stops with that statement "I'm an engineer". Because I've just got a Master of Science degree. That's kid stuff.

I also said "some" engineers. Some are also perfectly level-headed and reasonable. ;)

And I'm not a tech either. Just a newbie to this site that finds it very educational. And entertaining. :)
 
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