Brands debate (separated from the Frontier thread)

crunchierthanthou

New member
I agree, snowbird. Britax is not the end all, be all, but I am a fan of many of their features. As I've said before, the biggest sway toward the frontier for me would be LATCH capabilities in booster mode. If I do buy this, it will be for a 4 year old. I would expect to eventually use it as a booster and given the weight of the combination seats hitting the market lately (notably the 20+ lb nautilus, and I expect this to be similar), LATCH compatibility would sell me alone. I'm really, really hoping for that feature. Since it's not an immediate need, I'm not buying anything until I've seen the Frontier in action.
 
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UlrikeDG

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Until manufacturers release testing results, there is no way to know.

It would actually take independent test results, not those from the manufacturer, to truly convince me.
 

jwren

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Ok I agree with you to a point, The reason I thought Britax was safe is because it was tested...

(quote: "Britax has more engineers and child safety experts than anyone else in the world. Britax safety testing exceeds U.S. standards and is so advanced, it can also certify airline seats. Britax car seats are the only child seat that is safety tested around the world using a real crash.")

I always read the safety ratings and the overall It makes me feel good when I know a company is above the normal requirements of safety.. Bottom line for me is that I know that Britax is known for it's quality, and safety. That's not to say that Graco or other companys are not safe. It's just that I know that the one I am looking at is...I still wanted to buy a Graco (and I do believe that they are also very safe) but they don't always offer the same features as you get with a higher priced seat... for example I am hearing now that the Nautilus is not better for crotch depth than the Marathon...So now I am hoping for the Frontier to have two slots there... Little boys need more room there... bottom line...:eek:;) The Nautilus also has (from what I've heard) no way to latch in booster mode, which is a big deal for me, and the width of the top is narrow, I have a big tall boy. There are many things to consider when buying a seat and just like it took me years to have my children it's now taking me months to keep them safe.. but that's ok by me;)
PS: just to be clear on this I was told by Britax that you CAN latch in booster mode with the frontier...

My image of the headrest height adjustment is that it will be like the peg perego SIP infant seats. Those seats have 4 or 5 harness heights fairly close together, and you just push in two plastic pieces and then slide it up or down. That's one thing I actually like about the Peg SIP infant seat...

I agree though that $300 is very pricy for a combo seat unless a kid is going straight from something like a SS1 to a frontier.

And to add to what crunchier said,

Harness adjuster strap - the strap that you pull on to tighten the harness.

Harness adjuster mechanism - the physical mechanism that holds the harness adjuster strap in place once you've tightened it, as well as the mechanism that you operate in order to loosen the harness.

Infinite harness adjust (as in the case of the blvd and the diplomat,) There are one set of slots on the headrest and the headrest is moved up and down by turning a knob so that the straps are positioned at the child's shoulders at all times. Because it's a knob, there aren't any preset positions, it's just wherever you quit turning the knob.

9 harness heights makes me think that it is not infinite adjust, but rather that there are 9 settings that the headrest locks into. So no knob, but there will be some way that the headrest moves from one position to the other without rethreading.

Personally, I think it's kind of an ugly looking seat and it looks even narrower than the nautilus. If people think that the nautilus squishes bigger kids, than this seat isn't going to do any good for that population of kids... And while I'm giving my uncensored opinion, at double the price of the nautilus, I don't really think it's worth buying a seat just to get the britax name & lock-offs unless you drive an older vehicle.

I've seen this stated a lot lately, and just have to say it:

Britax is NOT the safest carseat out there, because there is no such thing. Saying that you want your child to have the safest seat so you're going to buy a Britax is an unvalidated opinion. Until manufacturers release testing results, there is no way to know.

And I have to think the sky might come falling down around Britax in the event that happened, because I often wonder if their seats truly do out perform other seats that have features I consider important like EPS or EPP foam and relative ease of installation.

So while I am a Britax fan, it irks me to hear people rave about a new seat that they're going to wait on because Britax is the safest... the safest seat is one that fits your vehicle, fits your child, and will be used correctly every time. To pick one brand and give the opinion that it's safest does a disservice to parents and their children.

:soapbox:

(Saying this now because I've read in recent threads where Britax is being waited for or chosen because it's the safest. We just have to get that thinking out of our heads and quit passing it on as fact when it's nothing more than speculation and opinion.)
 

singingpond

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

.....
Personally, I think it's kind of an ugly looking seat and it looks even narrower than the nautilus. If people think that the nautilus squishes bigger kids, than this seat isn't going to do any good for that population of kids.....

And while I'm giving my uncensored opinion, at double the price of the nautilus, I don't really think it's worth buying a seat just to get the britax name & lock-offs unless you drive an older vehicle.

I've seen this stated a lot lately, and just have to say it:

Britax is NOT the safest carseat out there, because there is no such thing. Saying that you want your child to have the safest seat so you're going to buy a Britax is an unvalidated opinion. Until manufacturers release testing results, there is no way to know........
So while I am a Britax fan, it irks me to hear people rave about a new seat that they're going to wait on because Britax is the safest... the safest seat is one that fits your vehicle, fits your child, and will be used correctly every time. To pick one brand and give the opinion that it's safest does a disservice to parents and their children.

:soapbox:

(Saying this now because I've read in recent threads where Britax is being waited for or chosen because it's the safest. We just have to get that thinking out of our heads and quit passing it on as fact when it's nothing more than speculation and opinion.)

I really agree with all this. Thank you for stating it so eloquently! I started a recent thread with a related question -- title was something like 'why would you pay twice as much', meaning what features would the Frontier need to have in order to make it worth twice as much as the Nautilus to people? I was actually surprised at the number of posters who said the answer was largely (or even exclusively) that they would be willing to pay that much more 'because it's made by Britax'. Julie (joolsplus3) did say that Britax does dynamic side impact testing, which has to be worth more than the static (or no) testing done for side crashes by other manufacturers. That at least is a substantive reason to prefer Britax (even if we don't know exactly what their SIP test results are). However, most of the 'because it's Britax' responses didn't have much else to go on. Apparently Britax has achieved such a position of trust that many people are willing to pay twice as much for a Britax seat as for a Graco seat, even if the features of the two seats are similar. I thought that was interesting, and sort of surprising (and quite an accomplishment for Britax marketing).

I'll have to think more about the side-impact issues (which does matter to me, since I drive a small older car without side airbags). However, if the Frontier does max out its harness height at 18.5", that means it doesn't outperform the Nautilus on that very important point. LATCHable booster is nice, but won't sway my personal decision because our vehicles are too old to have LATCH anchors anyway. Also, if the Frontier has the annoying Marathon-type harness adjuster, it will really have to outperform in other areas to make up for that, IMO.

Someone (maybe in that other thread I mentioned) was recently computing the cost per day for using a Frontier versus a Nautilus. Not surprisingly, the cost per day is a small-looking number of pennies for both seats. Also, not surprisingly, the Frontier costs twice as many daily pennies as the Nautilus :D. I think the point of the argument was that it is 'obviously' worth this small daily cost to keep your child as safe as possible. This type of argument is just a red herring, IMO, since it tries to make you feel you are not doing your best as a parent if you are unwilling to spend that tiny-looking amount to keep your precious child safe. It tells us nothing substantive about the actual safety performance of the seats in question. Also, why not extrapolate and make the 'better' seat 5 or 10 times as expensive? Hey, it's still less than a dollar a day -- isn't that a small price to pay to keep your child safe.... hmmmm (which is the sarcastic emoticon again?) ??

Katrin
 

ZephyrBlue

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Julie (joolsplus3) did say that Britax does dynamic side impact testing, which has to be worth more than the static (or no) testing done for side crashes by other manufacturers

This alone is worth an extra $150, to me. I will replace my 5yo's Nautilus w/a Frontier just because of the SIP testing and subsequent features that result. Sure the Nautilus has EPS foam in the headwing area, but none in the torso area. Couple this with the fact that the head and torso wings of the Frontier will be deeper than the Nautilus, based on the picture we've seen. If my tiny DD's body is going to slam around in the event of a side impact collision, I'd much prefer that she slam into EPS foam than a bare plastic shell with a thin cover over it. Logically I know that since her harness is always snug, the chances of her body being thrown around much is very small, but I'd like there to be energy-absorbing foam surrounding her as much as possible. It's one of those, "Do your best and hope that it was the right thing" for me. The extra foam and SIP seat design may not make any difference. But what if it does? That's a big "if" to take with my daughter's safety, to me personally. But definately a parental decision.

The fact that Britax continually tests their products (that are already on the market) is also a big factor for me feeling that they are "safer" than other products. Do I know for sure that continued testing contributes to the overall safety of a seat? Nope. But I think that it certainly can't hurt, and I'm willing to spend a few extra pennies per day on the off-chance that it helps.

Britax is NOT the safest carseat out there, because there is no such thing. Saying that you want your child to have the safest seat so you're going to buy a Britax is an unvalidated opinion. Until manufacturers release testing results, there is no way to know.

And I have to think the sky might come falling down around Britax in the event that happened, because I often wonder if their seats truly do out perform other seats that have features I consider important like EPS or EPP foam and relative ease of installation.

A seat without notches in the shell that can cause severe and permanent brain damage to a child IS safer than one that posseses the notches. What good is a great product if you're not sure whether the manufacturer skimped $0.24 per seat to ensure that it's safe? Reputation and responsibility counts towards overall product integrity. And even without testing results, we know that some companies knowingly sell seats that are unsafe. To my knowledge, we know nothing of the sort about Britax, at this point. And the information we have right now is what we have to base our seat purchase decisions on.
 
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arly1983

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

It is not that you like Britax and believe it to be safer, it is that there are some on this board that take ever chance they can to point that "Britax is safer, Britax is best" at the expense of other's feelings and make their efforts to keep their children safe seem paltry.

I don't care if you think Britax is the best, just stop insulting others by insinuating that "you can't put a price tag on my childs safety" as if they are being horrible parents because money is a factor.

Great, your child is in the "best seat", now the rest of us would like to stop hearing about how much safer it is.

It has become less of a safety factor and more of a superiority factor, in some situations for these select few.

And no it is not everyone, there is not reason why you shouldn't buy Britax, Safeguard, Recaro, whatever if that is what fits your child, your budget, your vehicle. I am not fussing about you so take a step back.

I am talking to the few that CONTINUE to wave their "More Money and this tag Makes My Child Safer than Yours" insinuations at every.single.opportunity. even after being here for a while.

And take this with this in mind, I mean I have probably spent the most money and owned just about as many seats as ANY person on this board. I am not talking to those who don't mind spending money. I am talking about those that have the wrong motives and attitude.

Now on that note to return to the topic at hand, yes, I will proabably buy this seat and if I don't like it for us, yes, it will probably be in the swap section. I just can't help myself. I am to curious. And for those keeping count, this will be the 36th seat I have bought (well, either this or the Trufit will be 36, according to what is released first).

Trudy I love you.
 

dhardawa

Active member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

This alone is worth an extra $150, to me. I will replace my 5yo's Nautilus w/a Frontier just because of the SIP testing and subsequent features that result. Sure the Nautilus has EPS foam in the headwing area, but none in the torso area. Couple this with the fact that the head and torso wings of the Frontier will be deeper than the Nautilus, based on the picture we've seen. If my tiny DD's body is going to slam around in the event of a side impact collision, I'd much prefer that she slam into EPS foam than a bare plastic shell with a thin cover over it. Logically I know that since her harness is always snug, the chances of her body being thrown around much is very small, but I'd like there to be energy-absorbing foam surrounding her as much as possible. It's one of those, "Do your best and hope that it was the right thing" for me. The extra foam and SIP seat design may not make any difference. But what if it does? That's a big "if" to take with my daughter's safety, to me personally. But definately a parental decision.

The fact that Britax continually tests their products (that are already on the market) is also a big factor for me feeling that they are "safer" than other products. Do I know for sure that continued testing contributes to the overall safety of a seat? Nope. But I think that it certainly can't hurt, and I'm willing to spend a few extra pennies per day on the off-chance that it helps.



A seat without notches in the shell that can cause severe and permanent brain damage to a child IS safer than one that posseses the notches. What good is a great product if you're not sure whether the manufacturer skimped $0.24 per seat to ensure that it's safe? Reputation and responsibility counts towards overall product integrity. And even without testing results, we know that some companies knowingly sell seats that are unsafe. To my knowledge, we know nothing of the sort about Britax, at this point. And the information we have right now is what we have to base our seat purchase decisions on.

I agree with this 100%. Britax seats are tested and tested and tested. We know what will happen in a certain scenario because the seat has been tested like that. With other seats, it is anyone's guess. I also trust them as a company. They recalled, what, 300,000+ Marathons for adjuster slippage in four seats. I certainly don't see other companies doing that. Quite the opposite actually. How many years did it take Evenflo to recall their infant seat that pops out of the base in a crash?

As for the argument that a "cushy" seat is not safer, if the seat being comfortable makes my eight year old want to be in a harnessed seat over a booster because it feels nice, that has to be taken into consideration. Also, being able to drive without a screaming child who has plastic jabbing him in the back or whose butt is asleep from sitting on hard plastic increases the overall safety of everyone in the car.

There is also the fact that Britax is typically on the cutting edge of child restraints. They had high weight harnessing seats before other companies, have had an 80 lb harnessed seat for years, had a non-twist harness before anyone else (many seats still don't), have seats specifically geared toward side impact crashes, used EPS foam years before it became common, offered a rear facing tether that most seats still don't do, etc.

Now, with all that said, do I look down on parents without Britax or think that Britax is the only safe seat? No, not at all. But, I hate the whole "the safest seat is the one that fits your budget, fits your vehicle..." line. A seat that fits your budget has nothing to do with safety. If a $5, 15 year old, crashed, yard sale seat is what is in your budget, does that make it the "safest seat"? Of course not. A seat that fits your car is important and definitely plays into seat safety, but most parents have no idea what seats are highly compatible and what seats are highly incompatible. Therefore, this is useless information for most parents. The seat you'll use correctly is also important, but there are seats that are very difficult to use and seats that are very easy to use. Again, without giving the parents more information, this is useless because the average parent doesn't know what seats are easy to use and what seats aren't. When this question is asked, I'd much rather see a list given of seats in different price ranges along with the pros and the cons of each in regards to ease of use and ease of install and an explanation that if the seat doesn't fit, even if it is the easiest to use, it is not safe.
 

ZephyrBlue

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Now, with all that said, do I look down on parents without Britax or think that Britax is the only safe seat? No, not at all. But, I hate the whole "the safest seat is the one that fits your budget, fits your vehicle..." line. A seat that fits your budget has nothing to do with safety. If a $5, 15 year old, crashed, yard sale seat is what is in your budget, does that make it the "safest seat"? Of course not. A seat that fits your car is important and definitely plays into seat safety, but most parents have no idea what seats are highly compatible and what seats are highly incompatible. Therefore, this is useless information for most parents. The seat you'll use correctly is also important, but there are seats that are very difficult to use and seats that are very easy to use. Again, without giving the parents more information, this is useless because the average parent doesn't know what seats are easy to use and what seats aren't. When this question is asked, I'd much rather see a list given of seats in different price ranges along with the pros and the cons of each in regards to ease of use and ease of install and an explanation that if the seat doesn't fit, even if it is the easiest to use, it is not safe.

I'm SO glad to hear a tech admit this. Thank you for your candor, Dana.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Well, some people who disagree with that POV are techs as well, fwiw.

And I don't disagree *completely*. I agree that a seat that the child wants to use is desireable for many reasons and worth the money to many parents (I bought the RN80 for the cover and cushions), but I disagree that pretty covers are a safety feature.

I also agree that budget considerations aren't safety features either, but it's a fact of life that money matters to most of us. No, a crashed expired yardsale seat isn't a safe choice. Neither is riding in an expired and/or outgrown seat while parents save for a Britax or Recaro or Safeguard seat.

I'm not anti-Britax (or Recaro, or Safeguard, or any high-end seat) in any way. I am anti- the idea that there is one best brand or best seat -- if there was, we'd all own it.
 

jwren

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

I couldn't have said that better myself...;):thumbsup:

This alone is worth an extra $150, to me. I will replace my 5yo's Nautilus w/a Frontier just because of the SIP testing and subsequent features that result. Sure the Nautilus has EPS foam in the headwing area, but none in the torso area. Couple this with the fact that the head and torso wings of the Frontier will be deeper than the Nautilus, based on the picture we've seen. If my tiny DD's body is going to slam around in the event of a side impact collision, I'd much prefer that she slam into EPS foam than a bare plastic shell with a thin cover over it. Logically I know that since her harness is always snug, the chances of her body being thrown around much is very small, but I'd like there to be energy-absorbing foam surrounding her as much as possible. It's one of those, "Do your best and hope that it was the right thing" for me. The extra foam and SIP seat design may not make any difference. But what if it does? That's a big "if" to take with my daughter's safety, to me personally. But definately a parental decision.

The fact that Britax continually tests their products (that are already on the market) is also a big factor for me feeling that they are "safer" than other products. Do I know for sure that continued testing contributes to the overall safety of a seat? Nope. But I think that it certainly can't hurt, and I'm willing to spend a few extra pennies per day on the off-chance that it helps.



A seat without notches in the shell that can cause severe and permanent brain damage to a child IS safer than one that posseses the notches. What good is a great product if you're not sure whether the manufacturer skimped $0.24 per seat to ensure that it's safe? Reputation and responsibility counts towards overall product integrity. And even without testing results, we know that some companies knowingly sell seats that are unsafe. To my knowledge, we know nothing of the sort about Britax, at this point. And the information we have right now is what we have to base our seat purchase decisions on.
 

scatterbunny

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

I'm SO glad to hear a tech admit this. Thank you for your candor, Dana.

Dana's not the only one to be so frank, ZB. Many of us techs on this board have said in the past that we try to give a list of seats that would work for the particular situation in a variety of price ranges, explaining the pros and cons of each. I definitely take someone's budget into consideration, especially when I KNOW it's a factor (in my area, it always is, almost 3/4 of dd's schoolmates are on the free lunch program, very poor area), but when a more expensive seat will fit the situation better, I do mention it. I do it because when we bought dd's Husky we were THAT poor, but we bought a crappy (to us) Nania Airway to hold her over until our tax refund came in (back when we still qualified for earned income credit :p ). The first thing we used that tax money for was her Husky, because we knew that was the best seat for her. Not because it was more expensive; her Airway was cheap and it would have worked just fine for awhile, but she was very tall and long-torsoed and evenly proportioned so also heavy for her age; the Husky really fit her needs the best.

Anyway, I just had to point out that we've had discussions before about how we approach the idea of seat recommendation, and most of us agree it's useless to send a parent away with simply a list of ideas or features to look for, in a sea of seats they'll be lost. I make sure to stay neutral and not recommend one brand over another, but I will definitely list specific seats in various price ranges that will work for the situation. I list the features those seats have. If some have EPS foam and deeper wings, I'll say so.

I think honesty can be achieved while still being neutral and fair. :twocents:
 

scatterbunny

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

I agree that a seat that the child wants to use is desireable for many reasons and worth the money to many parents, but I disagree that pretty covers are a safety feature.

I also agree that budget considerations aren't safety features either, but it's a fact of life that money matters to most of us. No, a crashed expired yardsale seat isn't a safe choice. Neither is riding in an expired and/or outgrown seat while parents save for a Britax or Recaro or Safeguard seat.

I'm not anti-Britax (or Recaro, or Safeguard, or any high-end seat) in any way. I am anti- the idea that there is one best brand or best seat -- if there was, we'd all own it.

:2thumbsup: Great post. I own Recaro and Britax seats, but if another brand fit our needs better at this point, we'd own it. In fact, my daughter uses the B510 more often, and honestly, we prefer it in every way over the Britax and Recaro seats we have right now EXCEPT for the lack of torso wings. And that's huge to me, so we're sort of booster shopping at the moment, but I'm really not happy with the Recaro and Britax booster choices, but they're the only ones to offer the deeper wings that I want.
 

jwren

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

I just wanted to say that the reason I brought up the fact that you can't put a price on your child's safety is because I keep reading comments about the Frontier being double the price, and for me although I too look at price, it's not my first concern... Noone said anyone was a horrible parent...:confused:
Also why can't we talk about how safe something is? I don't see anything wrong with that? Besides I am all for any parent who puts their toddler in a well built (non expired) 5pt harness regardless of what type, over any booster...My sisters kids (they both weigh less than my 4 yr old) are in boosters, but I don't think she is a horrible parent, I just think she is stubborn...:(

It is not that you like Britax and believe it to be safer, it is that there are some on this board that take ever chance they can to point that "Britax is safer, Britax is best" at the expense of other's feelings and make their efforts to keep their children safe seem paltry.

I don't care if you think Britax is the best, just stop insulting others by insinuating that "you can't put a price tag on my childs safety" as if they are being horrible parents because money is a factor.

Great, your child is in the "best seat", now the rest of us would like to stop hearing about how much safer it is.

It has become less of a safety factor and more of a superiority factor, in some situations for these select few.

And no it is not everyone, there is not reason why you shouldn't buy Britax, Safeguard, Recaro, whatever if that is what fits your child, your budget, your vehicle. I am not fussing about you so take a step back.

I am talking to the few that CONTINUE to wave their "More Money and this tag Makes My Child Safer than Yours" insinuations at every.single.opportunity. even after being here for a while.

And take this with this in mind, I mean I have probably spent the most money and owned just about as many seats as ANY person on this board. I am not talking to those who don't mind spending money. I am talking about those that have the wrong motives and attitude.

Now on that note to return to the topic at hand, yes, I will proabably buy this seat and if I don't like it for us, yes, it will probably be in the swap section. I just can't help myself. I am to curious. And for those keeping count, this will be the 36th seat I have bought (well, either this or the Trufit will be 36, according to what is released first).

Trudy I love you.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

I just wanted to say that the reason I brought up the fact that you can't put a price on your child's safety is because I keep reading comments about the Frontier being double the price, and for me although I too look at price, it's not my first concern... Noone said anyone was a horrible parent...:confused:

I'm glad for you. It *has* to be a concern for some people. And it's perfectly appropriate to question whether it's more important to buy a Frontier and eat pantry stew for a month or buy a Nautilus and fresh fruits and vegetables.
 

ZephyrBlue

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Anyway, I just had to point out that we've had discussions before about how we approach the idea of seat recommendation, and most of us agree it's useless to send a parent away with simply a list of ideas or features to look for, in a sea of seats they'll be lost. I make sure to stay neutral and not recommend one brand over another, but I will definitely list specific seats in various price ranges that will work for the situation. I list the features those seats have. If some have EPS foam and deeper wings, I'll say so.

I think honesty can be achieved while still being neutral and fair.

Jenny, I respect that. And I've observed you personally giving a wide range of seats and pointing out different safety features. However, there are techs that post on this board who seem to go out of their way to recommend non-Britax seats, just on their own personal principle that "Britax is in no way superior". People who come here looking for advice get told, "Every seat on the market has passed gov't standards, and therefore are equally safe." This may or may not be true, as we've all discussed at length. And I've seen it written here more times than I can count that a Scenera is just as safe as a Marathon. Now, most people who know both seats will be able to spot the fallicy in that line, but what about someone who really has no knowledge about EPS foam and figures that Britax is just a fancy brand name with nothing more to offer than pretty covers and a high price tag? Even my parents, who know nothing about seats, can deduce that a child's head colliding with a plastic seat shell will incur more damage than if they were to smack into EPS foam- BUT if they are told by certified professionals that the 2 products are equally safe, well, why shouldn't they believe them?

The track record of some companies and how they've handled information about their own dangerous seats speaks for itself. The day that it's proven (in a court of law i.e. the Evenflo case) that a child was permanantly injured or killed by a Britax seat that Britax knew was dangerous, I'll be the first to admit that Britax might not be superior. Until then, well, Britax's quality speaks for itself. They've recalled seats, like Dana mentioned, where no one was injured. It takes Evenflo and Dorel being sued for a child's death and/or permanant injury to take the same action. I'm NOT saying that Britax is undoubtedly the safest brand of seats. But neither is it correct to say, "Britax does NOT make the safest seats", because really, we don't know that to be factual.

Sure some people want to buy what's cheapest. For whatever reason. But others want to buy what's safest. And they get fed the same, "The seat which fits your child, your vehicle and your budget and that you will use correctly every time is safest". Dana is right, safety and cost have NO correlation. Fitting into a budget does not affect how safe a seat is, and I think it's wrong to pretend that it does. It's okay to be honest with people and say, "It's SAFER to have your child in a seat with no EPS foam and shallow sides than, say, in nothing or an expired seat, but it's SAFEST to have them in a seat that's been tested in many many scenarios and has been engineered to withstand those different types of collisions."

Having kids means you make all sorts of hard choices. But trying to make people feel better about not wanting to or not being able to spend a certain amount of money at the possible expense of their child's safety by saying, "Everything is just as safe as everything else" isn't right, IMO. Better to be honest and say, "This feature may very well be safer. We don't know for sure, but this particular company does more extensive testing and developed the product as a result of said testing."
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

But neither is it correct to say, "Britax does NOT make the safest seats", because really, we don't know that to be factual.

Actually, as a point of debate, it *is* correct to say that there is no factual proof that Britax makes the safest seats.
 

ZephyrBlue

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Actually, as a point of debate, it *is* correct to say that there is no factual proof that Britax makes the safest seats.

To clarify, I was trying to say that there is no proof either way. It's no more true to say, "Britax seats are not the safest" than it is to say, "Britax definately makes the safest seats"
 

scatterbunny

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

We have no solid PROOF that one seat performs better in a crash than another. All we can honestly say is that all seats sold in the US pass the same minimum testing. I always include that word: minimum. I explain briefly that that means testing at 30mph in a frontal crash. I mention EPS foam, and that some companies test above and beyond the US minimums.

But ultimately using any restraint properly that fits the child correctly vastly increases the child's chances of survival in a crash, and again, we have no way of knowing which seat(s) will perform better. We can speculate all we want, based on certain companies that test beyond the minimums, but do we really know, based on that testing, that seat A will perform better than seat B? We don't.

Cost shouldn't make a difference, you're right, but we don't live in a perfect world. If I hadn't been able to scrape up the cash for a Husky way back when, if I had had to keep my child in the Airway, I would have felt shamed by post like some of the ones I'm reading. I would have felt like a lesser parent for having to choose a less expensive seat that isn't a favorite.

It's okay to be honest with people and say, "It's SAFER to have your child in a seat with no EPS foam and shallow sides than, say, in nothing or an expired seat, but it's SAFEST to have them in a seat that's been tested in many many scenarios and has been engineered to withstand those different types of collisions."

Don't you see the liability issues of making a statement like that? No properly trained tech should feel okay saying that brand A is safer than brand B because they go above and beyond in testing. We simply have no way of knowing how brand A will perform compared to brand B in a real-world crash. This is opening us up to parents coming back after a crash, with child in brand A, saying, "but you SAID this brand was the safest, that it would protect in this type of crash because the company tested for it!"
 

ZephyrBlue

New member
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

Jenny, because I'm interested in the liability issue now that you brought it up- would it be libelous to tell a parent that seat A has no EPS foam and that the manufacturer had made some very dangerous errors in deciding to continue selling a seat that had been known to cause injury, but that the seat does pass gov't standard testing?

I don't see how saying that certain manufacturers do testing beyond what is required of them, and design their seats to reflect the results of that testing could be libelous for you. As long as you don't say, "Seat A is the safest seat you can buy!" Am I wrong? Do you have to sign something when you complete the CPST training/testing saying that you will not give specific advice, or divulge information that you know is correct (ie, about certain manufacturers)?

I know what it feels like to have other people question your parenting choices; it's hard. But sometimes it's unavoidable. Giving people all of the information for them to be able to make an informed choice seems so much more responsible than trying to make people feel better about their financial situation, though.

TIA for your input; you are a tech whose advice I would consider much more carefully than some others. Even if we disagree about some things, I have a lot of respect for you.
 

carseatcoach

Carseat Crankypants
Re: The OFFICIAL Britax Frontier Spoilers & Speculation thread (part 2)

To clarify, I was trying to say that there is no proof either way. It's no more true to say, "Britax seats are not the safest" than it is to say, "Britax definately makes the safest seats"

If it cannot be proven that they are the safest, it is correct to say that they are not the safest.
 

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