School bus crash

crunchierthanthou · Feb 19, 2008

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23243603/

four students died and at least 14 were injured. That's pretty bad odds out of 28.

How do you all think this plays into the compartmentalization theory? I guess it's another example of how side impact crashes are more dangerous.

MsFacetious · Feb 20, 2008

http://car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=36824

BookMama · Feb 20, 2008

Oh, how awful.

Has any one read anything about the age or size of those who were injured or killed? I have heard that compartmentalization doesn't work as well with smaller/younger kids (which makes sense to me) and I wonder whether this crash bears that out. I've read that the kids on the bus were elmentary through high school ages, but no indication of how old the victims were. (Oh, I did see that two of the injured were 11 and 14, but that's it.)

Crunchy, in answer to your question, I have mixed feelings about compartmentalization. I do believe it works in crashes where the bus stays UPRIGHT and the children are likely hitting the seat in front of them (and thus stopping). But in a crash like this, where the kids are probably NOT hitting the seats in front of them - or if they are, they are then falling to the side when the bus tips - I just don't know.

skaterbabs · Feb 20, 2008

Plus, statistically speaking, the odds that these kids were out-of-position is pretty high, and compartmentalization doesn't work if the child is OOP.

BookMama · Feb 20, 2008

skaterbabscpst said:
Plus, statistically speaking, the odds that these kids were out-of-position is pretty high, and compartmentalization doesn't work if the child is OOP.

That's a very good point, especially considering that there were actually TWO crashes involved here - first the bus was hit by a van, then the bus hit (or was hit by?) the truck, which is when it tipped. I bet most kids were at least slightly out of position after the first crash.

skaterbabs · Feb 20, 2008

Yes, and that's assuming they were in position before it.

BookMama · Feb 20, 2008

I poked around on the internet a bit more and found this description of the crash, the most detailed description I've found:

"The crash happened about a mile south of Cottonwood at 3:30 p.m., said Lt. Mark Peterson of the State Patrol. The bus was carrying 28 students from Lakeview School, a K-12 school in Cottonwood, was driving south on Hwy. 23 when it collided with a van going east on Lyon County Road 24, he said. The impact tipped the bus onto its side, and it struck or fell on the pickup truck, witnesses said. The drivers of the van and truck, both alone in their vehicles, were taken to hospitals, but their condition was unknown late Tuesday, Peterson said."

So the bus tipped over in the FIRST part of the crash, not the second part as I originally thought. I'm sure that makes a difference, though I don't have enough time to ponder how.

dhardawa · Feb 20, 2008

In my opinion (and this is truly opinion, I have no data at all), I still think compartmentalization is the way to go. I think in bus crashes in general, more kids would be injured by either 1.) Lap belts that allow them to slam into the seat in front of then with their forehead and snaps the neck back 2.) Ill fitting lap/shoulder belts that would not fit all kids correctly (even if they are adjustable) and would not be used correctly.

In the case of this crash, it is awful that four kids died, but I think if we look at bus crashes in general (most of which don't result in the bus rolling) the compartmentalization does a better job of safely restraining the children than either of the two scenarios above.

Again, just my personal opionion.

Defrost · Feb 20, 2008

The Marshall Independent reported that the first motorists on the scene were asked to take some children to the hospital.

"Hello complete and total stranger, will you please transport this child, with completely unknown injuries, to the hospital in your personal vehicle with whatever means of safety restraint you have available?"

I understand it's a small town, but so is the one I live in, and it would a very bizarre and unlikely scenario where I would EVER put an injured child I didn't even know in my vehicle to take him/her to the hospital! Much less not have a simultaneous heart attack and stroke upon learning that that was how my child got to the hospital after a bus accident!

Mama2J · Feb 20, 2008

This is really sad, and what really scares me about the possibility of my son having to ride a bus.

I don't know what I will do about summer camp this year. They do a trip *each week* and there is no way I can take off work every week to avoid that or go with him. Maybe I can take off for one trip a month, but not every week. I'll have to find out if the trips are required for everyone to attend.

Jordynsmama · Feb 20, 2008

We dont really have buses much anymore around here.

I would never let J ride a bus, not just b/c of accidents, that being a big reason, but b/c of other things as well safety wise-

I think buses should be made like big vans and have regular seatbelts. Kinder should have their own buses with boosters. I think if a kid is too small for the seatbelt in a grade school bus, the parent needs to make the call and figure out another method of transportation.

Without seatbelts the kids do not stay in proper position. they are moving around, standing up, turned around, etc.....
So compartmentalization could never work as well as its is supposed to.

BookMama · Feb 20, 2008

For anyone who's still interested, the kids who died were 9,9,12, and 13. No word on the ages of the injured kids.

http://wcco.com/local/school.bus.crash.2.658537.html

Synchro246 · Feb 20, 2008

Defrost said:
"Hello complete and total stranger, will you please transport this child, with completely unknown injuries, to the hospital in your personal vehicle with whatever means of safety restraint you have available?"

I understand it's a small town, but so is the one I live in, and it would a very bizarre and unlikely scenario where I would EVER put an injured child I didn't even know in my vehicle to take him/her to the hospital! Much less not have a simultaneous heart attack and stroke upon learning that that was how my child got to the hospital after a bus accident!

I thought the *Same* thing. Too weird.

scatterbunny · Feb 20, 2008

I'm pretty okay with the idea of compartmentalization for kids big enough to benefit from it, in frontal crashes. When it comes to side impacts and rollovers, however, I just don't see how compartmentalization can help much. Especially when bus drivers are allowing three kids to a seat and not caring if they aren't sitting properly.

I'm worried because H is supposed to do a field trip next month 2 hours away on a bus. Her school district does not allow parents to transport, and statistically speaking, I know she's safer on a bus than in our vehicle. However, when it comes to a 2 hour road trip on a twisty 55 mph highway, I can't help but worry.

classicseats · Feb 20, 2008

Defrost said:
"Hello complete and total stranger, will you please transport this child, with completely unknown injuries, to the hospital in your personal vehicle with whatever means of safety restraint you have available?"

I understand it's a small town, but so is the one I live in, and it would a very bizarre and unlikely scenario where I would EVER put an injured child I didn't even know in my vehicle to take him/her to the hospital! Much less not have a simultaneous heart attack and stroke upon learning that that was how my child got to the hospital after a bus accident!

God forbid people help other people! A small town, how many ambulances could they have? I guess it's better to let the kids all sit around on the street waiting their turn!

mominabigtruck · Feb 20, 2008

This is why I'm happy that only 4 kids ride ds' bus and that not only is there a very experienced bus driver but also a monitor that puts the kids in their seats and talks to them during the ride. He says that she takes turns sitting with them during the week

Defrost · Feb 20, 2008

classicseats said:
God forbid people help other people! A small town, how many ambulances could they have? I guess it's better to let the kids all sit around on the street waiting their turn!

And if the child had a spinal injury?? Yes, please, leave her laying on the street until she can be safely moved!

I live in a small town - and in a situation like this I'd much rather see them waiting a few more minutes so that at least the police, firefighters, and volunteer firefighters could be the ones transporting them if it was truly that necessary, rather than having people scrambling in utter chaos. How many hours later would someone have looked around and said "Hey, whatever happened to little Mary? She just had a small cut on her head and I sent her off with some guy in a blue truck. Didn't she make it to the hospital?"

TechnoGranola · Feb 20, 2008

BookMama said:
For anyone who's still interested, the kids who died were 9,9,12, and 13. No word on the ages of the injured kids.

http://wcco.com/local/school.bus.crash.2.658537.html

:crying: Oh my....2 of the kids that died were brothers. So, one family lost TWO children in this accident. :crying:

scatterbunny · Feb 20, 2008

Defrost said:
And if the child had a spinal injury?? Yes, please, leave her laying on the street until she can be safely moved!

I live in a small town - and in a situation like this I'd much rather see them waiting a few more minutes so that at least the police, firefighters, and volunteer firefighters could be the ones transporting them if it was truly that necessary, rather than having people scrambling in utter chaos. How many hours later would someone have looked around and said "Hey, whatever happened to little Mary? She just had a small cut on her head and I sent her off with some guy in a blue truck. Didn't she make it to the hospital?"

I totally agree!

hearthsidemom · Feb 20, 2008

Sadly, it sounds like they had to make some sub-optimum choices in this case. Lying on the ground could have speeded death in some cases as the windchill values were around 19 below zero with very high winds (which also hampered the air ambulance) and many of the children had removed their coats and gloves on the bus.

The newspaper of the nearest small town is Marshall, MN, 10 miles away, which is where the nearest hospital is located. The newspaper is online if you'd like to read local to the crash information: http://www.marshallindependent.com/

My heart goes out to these families. I am sure this tragedy will bring about a lot of changes in disaster response in addition to the changes that the loss of these lives bring.

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