Questioning NHTSA minor crash criteria

snowbird25ca · Feb 9, 2008

At our seat check today, there was a Britax RA that had been involved in a crash. Parking lot speed crash, car was driveable, no injuries, no airbags deployed - basically one car bumped into the back of the parents vehicle going maybe 10km/hr (7mph?)

Sounds like according to Britax the seat wouldn't have to be replaced, right?

Wrong! Upon looking at this seat, the harness adjustment strap had split down the middle and a section of about 6 or 7" and half the width of the strap was completely frayed being mostly held together by the lengthwise threads. The seat was obviously unsafe in this case... Interestingly enough, there were no signs of stress on the shell and not so much as an indent in the EPS foam...

So it has me wondering, is using the NHTSA minor crash criteria even with carseat manufacturers that recommend it, really advisable? Both the Radian and Britax are now using that in their manuals for when to replace a seat... if a parking lot crash can have this effect on a seat that isn't expired & was in otherwise good condition, what hidden effects are there on other seats involved in similar crashes and that parents have continued to use based on the criteria?

Has anyone else ever encountered something like this?

(Too bad I didn't have a camera with me, it was sure something to see. I was able to talk to the tech who had been helping the mom, so that's how I found out all the info. Mom had the vehicle there & while I didn't see it, the tech said there was hardly any damage even to the vehicle...)

MomToEliEm · Feb 9, 2008

To me, it sounds like the harness was damaged by something else other then the minor accident. There have been some other posts on the board with pictures of britax harnesses in pretty bad shape, most likely due to continueous rubbing against something on the carseat frame. I think in this situation, the owner needs to contact Britax to describe the damage as it may be related to a more serious issue.

UlrikeDG · Feb 9, 2008

I agree that it sounds like the damage may have been at least partially unrelated to the crash, but if it was due to the crash, then it does meet the NHTSA standard for replacement.

A: Britax recommends that use of a child restraint be discontinued if it has been in a severe crash. We further advise of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) position that it is not necessary to replace a child restraint after a minor crash. A minor crash is one that meets ALL of following criteria:

* The vehicle was able to be driven away from the crash site;
* The vehicle door nearest the child restraint was undamaged;
* There were no injuries to any of the vehicle occupants;
* The air bags (if present) did not deploy; AND
* There is no visible damage to the child restraint.

There was visible damage to the seat.

ThreeBeans · Feb 9, 2008

UlrikeDG said:
I agree that it sounds like the damage may have been at least partially unrelated to the crash, but if it was due to the crash, then it does meet the NHTSA standard for replacement.

There was visible damage to the seat.

This exactly

sfeitler · Feb 9, 2008

I have trouble picturing how any crash could cause that kind of strap damage--assuming I've got the right mental picture, you're describing a seriously frayed strap, right? It seems like fraying would be a long-term issue, whereas a crash should cause fairly clean breaks in the straps or other components.

So... I would have the parent contact Britax, I think they had something else going on there, unrelated to the crash.

Just my (largely uneducated) guess though.

-Sarah

snowbird25ca · Feb 9, 2008

The seat has been destroyed, so there isn't any possibility of the parent contacting Britax. I wish I'd have talked to the parent though, because I would've told them to call Britax just because of the odd damage. It's kind of hard to describe the damage, because it wasn't exactly fraying in the true sense of the word - it was almost like some of the webbing snapped or something?

Kind of hard to describe.

I had wondered if there could've been prior damage too because I know all webbing goes through some pretty serious abrasion testing, plus a RA adjuster isn't as hard on an adjuster strap as the MA adjuster would be. And of course it's impossible to know what it looked like before the crash - the seat was in otherwise good condition though. :shrug-shoulders:

I just wonder how likely it would be for a parent to inspect that part of the seat? How well would the average person look the seat over? Makes me wonder how many seats people are using that they think are ok, but really aren't.

(I got to thinking about the crash forces, and even at 10mph, a 30lb kid would put 300lbs of force on the harness, right? So even a low speed crash has potential for damage to the seat, it's possible if there was already a weak point, that that's all it took. Probably lucky for them it was so low speed.)

azgirl71 · Feb 10, 2008

I am glad you at least were able to destroy the seat. Since most people do not know you should replace a CR after a crash I don't htink most will take the time to look it over. My insurance man is dreading If I get in a crash because he know I will fight until they replace any seat I have in my vehicle at the time, Britax or other. He is pretty good though, he is a SF agent and has kids, so he knows I am not crazy.

He had an employee 2 yrs ago who's 11 yo was in the fron't seat and seriously injured by the airbag in a crash. She had to have reconstructive surgery and missed 2 months of school.

Sorry to wonder off topic.

Were you able to give her a new seat or did she purchse a new one?

snowbird25ca · Feb 10, 2008

She'll have to buy a new one unless insurance covers it. (I'm not sure who was at fault in the crash...)

We don't have free seats to give out at our seat checks here. The health unit has a loaner program for low income families that has a small fee for them to participate in, but no free seats.

azgirl71 · Feb 10, 2008

snowbird25ca said:
She'll have to buy a new one unless insurance covers it. (I'm not sure who was at fault in the crash...)

We don't have free seats to give out at our seat checks here. The health unit has a loaner program for low income families that has a small fee for them to participate in, but no free seats.

I hope her insurance will replace it without seeing the old seat. YOu did say you destroyed it right?

I am sure Canadian stuff is very different than here in the US.

Wineaux · Feb 10, 2008

I really think we need to create a little handout on how to get your insurance company to pony up when it comes to replacing a seat after a crash. That way, we have something to give to people who's seats were involved in a crash, however minor they may seem.

azgirl71 · Feb 10, 2008

Wineaux said:
I really think we need to create a little handout on how to get your insurance company to pony up when it comes to replacing a seat after a crash. That way, we have something to give to people who's seats were involved in a crash, however minor they may seem.

Good idea! That could be your first job before you get your certification.

I think you would do a great job!

LuvBug · Feb 10, 2008

Wineaux said:
I really think we need to create a little handout on how to get your insurance company to pony up when it comes to replacing a seat after a crash. That way, we have something to give to people who's seats were involved in a crash, however minor they may seem.

you sure are full of ideas this morning

That would be cool to have.

Wineaux · Feb 10, 2008

azgirl71 said:
Good idea! That could be your first job before you get your certification. I think you would do a great job!

I'm cool with that. I can put in the "official" NHTSA crash replacement guidelines, as complete a list of car seat manufacturer names (At least the major ones.) and CS phone numbers as I can find (Do we already have such a list?), and our consumer advice on how to force an insurance company to replace a seat. Anything else that should be in it? Anyone have links to some of the info that I should be including in the handout?

Kabes · Feb 10, 2008

A list of ways to inspect the seat for damage. In the accident we had two days ago we met the criteria for a minor accident by some people's standards. My husband and I both had sore necks. . . an injury? The air bags did not deploy but it is a used vehicle and there is growing evidence of airbag fraud adn we've never had ours checked. Since both vehicles were going about 25 miles an hour and we impacted on the front right corner I was surprised it did not go off.

At first I thought my kids seats looked fine but the older two both had very slight indents in the foam. I decided at that point they all had to go. Who knows what else was weakened in the crash. I'm not willing to risk it. I did not document the damage; another excellent point for your brochure. I hope we don't have any trouble getting reimbursed.

Wineaux · Feb 10, 2008

I'll help you head off trouble getting reimbursed at the pass...

If your insurance company refuses to pay for replacing the seats, then DEMAND (You are not asking here, btw.) that they either replace the seats or provide you with a signed document accepting any and ALL liability for injuries or deaths associated with the seat(s) that they are refusing to replace. Trust me, they will quickly realize that the first choice is MUCH cheaper for them in the long run, and replace your seats.

PS... Don't dispose of the seats as your insurance company may require you to give them the seats in order to get reimbursed.

azgirl71 · Feb 10, 2008

Wineaux said:
I'm cool with that. I can put in the "official" NHTSA crash replacement guidelines, as complete a list of car seat manufacturer names (At least the major ones.) and CS phone numbers as I can find (Do we already have such a list?), and our consumer advice on how to force an insurance company to replace a seat. Anything else that should be in it? Anyone have links to some of the info that I should be including in the handout?

I will see what i can find. May not be today though.

joolsplus3 · Feb 10, 2008

NHTSA guidelines are based on Canadian (ICBC) testing... http://www.icbc.com/library/research_papers/child_seat/index.asp

"The 9 CRS used in these tests included all popular configurations (except booster), and most major brand names. Three of the seats were rear-facing, the others front-facing. Front-facing models included 5-point harness, 3-point harness, and T-shield styles. They ranged in age from new to 10 years old, most being 3 - 4 years old...... None of the CRS showed any failure or any signs of deterioration in these tests following the 50 low speed impacts. All seats passed all tests."

minismom · Feb 10, 2008

Wineaux:

When r u getting certified?

Where do you live?

Where's the picture of your DS in the new BLVD?

Is your name pronouced weyeneaux or weeneaux?

Humm, I know you're not the spotlight yet, but I'm seeing lots of posts by you today and i'm too curious to wait!

Wineaux · Feb 10, 2008

My class is from May 14-17.

We just had a primary here yesterday.

The picture is still on my DW's camera which is in her purse at work.

I used to be a liquor salesman, and am still a cork dork, so it's pronounced Wino, just like the drunken bum on the corner...

Jeanum · Feb 10, 2008

Wineaux said:
I'm cool with that. I can put in the "official" NHTSA crash replacement guidelines, as complete a list of car seat manufacturer names (At least the major ones.) and CS phone numbers as I can find (Do we already have such a list?), and our consumer advice on how to force an insurance company to replace a seat. Anything else that should be in it? Anyone have links to some of the info that I should be including in the handout?

Feel free to utilize the info. in this article about crashed seats and insurance in the Safety Articles forum: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=9575 I put it together over a year ago so I wouldn't need to retype it so often in replying to questions here, and it may save you some typing and web link searching as well if you haven't already done so.

Questioning NHTSA minor crash criteria

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