Saturn Outlook headrests and seat recline question

little sprouts

New member
Hi. We bought a Saturn Outlook about a month ago. I read here in another post and in my car manual that in order to install a child restraint in the second row using LATCH that the second row must be placed in the full recline position. It goes on to say that the 3rd row must be in full upright position when installing a child restraint there. The car manual does not say anything about the 2nd row needing to be in any specific position when installing with the safety belts and top tether.

I have 2 children (almost 11 month old and a 3.5 year old) and they are both rearfacing. Currently, I have a RF Chicco Keyfit22 installed behind passenger seat using LATCH and a RF Britax Decathlon behind driver seat using seatbelt and tethered with D-ring. When we test drove, we had a lot of problems trying to install the Decathlon FF with the headrests as they are not adjustable and they were getting in the way of a good install. (We wanted to be sure we could install the DC FF for future use!) The dealer spoke with the service department and they were able to show us how to remove the headrests and then we were able to get a good install by first reclining the bench seat with the headrest removed, installing the Decathlon FF, then bringing the bench seat back into upright position. This gave a solid install.

All of this information leads me to the following questions...
1) Does this mean that the second row bench seat must be in full recline position to install carseats? I have one seat installed using LATCH and the other with the safety belts, so I am confused.

2) If the bench seat does in fact need to be in full recline position, it would appear that the car seats would be more reclined then on the seat and I thought that it was better for a FF seat to be in the most upright position to disperse forces or something in an accident? Am I missing something here? This just doesn't make sense to me.

3) Did anyone else remove headrests to get a good install in outboard positions for a FF Britax?

Any techs, please advise.
Thank you very much for any thoughts on this!

Smiles,
Jen
Thomas 9.21.04 RF Decathlon @ 29#
Kerrigan 2.19.07 RF Keyfit22 @ 13# 15oz.
 
ADS

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I have installed a FF'ing MA in are Acadia. I did have issues with the headrest. I couldn't get it removed but I would love to know what trick they showed you to remove the headrest. Are you able to put the headrest back on in the future with no issues?

Here is pictures of the MA installed FF'ing. I had to pull the base out from the seat bit and then push the MA seatback into the seat while tightening the LATCH straps. With the MA it's easier I would assume just due to having seperate LATCH straps & the LATCH bar to help.

IMG_5589.jpg

IMG_5588.jpg

IMG_5586.jpg


Both the vehicle seat & the car seat are in the full upright position.
 

little sprouts

New member
Thanks for the quick reply. My dealer gave me the service information printed off from the service.gm.com site for the Rear Seat Head Restraint Guide Replacement (with 60% seat). We have the second row bench seat not captains chairs but this is what the procedure says (there are 2 callouts whatever that means so I am just going to type out all the information I have and you can determine what might work for your vehicle!)
Callout One:
1. Push down on the seat back cover at the base of the head restraint to access the clips on the head restraint guides.
2. Remove the head restraint guide clips to release the head restraint.
3. Slide the head restraint up to remvoe.

Or Callout 2:
1. Loosen the rear seat back cover and pad enough to gain access to the head restraint guides from the front of the seat back.
2. Squeeze together the bottom of the head restraint guide and push upward to remove.

I hope this helps you out. We have one of the headrests removed already and have put it back at least once when we had friends in the car with us and had taken the carseats out (and then we took the head restraints out again when we reinstalled my son's seat even though it is still rearfacing!)

Would you mind looking in your Acadia manual to see if there is anything about the full recline or not when installing seats? I had read the manual a few times before installing our seats, but didn't notice the line until I read it here somewhere and then went back to check my manual and noticed it. It was in the section about installing your child restraint using LATCH, but surprisingly, nothing was written about this in the section about installing with safety belts which is why my husband and I are confused!

Also, does this mean that your FF Marathon base is entirely on the seat or is it off any? That was another problem that we fixed with the headrest being removed...and you might be on to something with the LATCH bars being different on the Decathlon...

jen
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I drive an Outlook and the vehicle manual does require you to have the seat reclined when a ff'ing carseat is installed. With the seat reclined, then the headrest interference disappears.

I'm also curious how they removed the headrest since they aren't adjustable. I have a thread in this forum that has pictures of carseats installed in my truck. I'll see if I can find the link and I'll come back and post it.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
Thanks for the quick reply. My dealer gave me the service information printed off from the service.gm.com site for the Rear Seat Head Restraint Guide Replacement (with 60% seat). We have the second row bench seat not captains chairs but this is what the procedure says (there are 2 callouts whatever that means so I am just going to type out all the information I have and you can determine what might work for your vehicle!)
Callout One:
1. Push down on the seat back cover at the base of the head restraint to access the clips on the head restraint guides.
2. Remove the head restraint guide clips to release the head restraint.
3. Slide the head restraint up to remvoe.

Or Callout 2:
1. Loosen the rear seat back cover and pad enough to gain access to the head restraint guides from the front of the seat back.
2. Squeeze together the bottom of the head restraint guide and push upward to remove.

I hope this helps you out. We have one of the headrests removed already and have put it back at least once when we had friends in the car with us and had taken the carseats out (and then we took the head restraints out again when we reinstalled my son's seat even though it is still rearfacing!)

Would you mind looking in your Acadia manual to see if there is anything about the full recline or not when installing seats? I had read the manual a few times before installing our seats, but didn't notice the line until I read it here somewhere and then went back to check my manual and noticed it. It was in the section about installing your child restraint using LATCH, but surprisingly, nothing was written about this in the section about installing with safety belts which is why my husband and I are confused!

Also, does this mean that your FF Marathon base is entirely on the seat or is it off any? That was another problem that we fixed with the headrest being removed...and you might be on to something with the LATCH bars being different on the Decathlon...

jen

The vehicle wasn't mine. It was a rental and unfortunitly I didn't have access to the vehicle owners manual. But to answer your question yes the base was fully on the seat. It took some work but I am glad to hear the headrest can be removed to help. But, Had I known that reclining the seat would have fixed the problem I would love that. We will be buying an Acadia at the end of year when my lease is up on my Tahoe.
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I drive an Outlook and the vehicle manual does require you to have the seat reclined when a ff'ing carseat is installed. With the seat reclined, then the headrest interference disappears.

I'm also curious how they removed the headrest since they aren't adjustable. I have a thread in this forum that has pictures of carseats installed in my truck. I'll see if I can find the link and I'll come back and post it.


Hey Trudy,

Have you installed your MA in the center bench seat? I am still on the fence if I want the 2nd row bench or caption chairs.

Also so reclining the seat helped with the protuding headrest esp for the MA? I had no issues with the Regent and the vehicle headrest. I still wish you had access to a Regent b/c I would love to know if it installs well with the new instructions.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Yep, MA ff'ing is perfect in all 3 positions. I haven't tried rf'ing in the center with the MA.

Here's some pics of the seat installed outboard to show how it meshes with the seat/headrest:

Base on vehicle seat:
may15022.jpg


Back of seat against headrest:
may15024.jpg


MA installed center:
12maymisc004.jpg

It is possible to get it installed a little more upright, but it's a bit harder to do.

Here's a pic with Radian ff'ing center too: (this is a tough install, but solid once you get it.)
kidsstartedoct29012.jpg
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
I just wanted to post an update to this thread here. I re-read my vehicle manual tonight, and under the LATCH install it says to recline the seatbacks all the way. Under the seatbelt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference which to me implies that the reclining could be optional with a rf'ing seatbelt install.

So my take on it is this:

- LATCH install (rf'ing or ff'ing) = seats reclined
- FF'ing seatbelt install = seats reclined
- RF'ing seatbelt install - seat may be upright provided that there isn't another seat installed that requires the seatback to be reclined.

**Both sides of the 60/40 split bench must be set to the same recline at all times when the vehicle is in motion. So if one seat is installed with LATCH, the whole bench must be reclined regardless of direction or method of installation of the other seats. Similarly, if a ff'ing seat is installed outboard, the entire bench must be reclined.

So in technicality, there is only one circumstance where the 2nd row bench would be allowed to be upright when installing the carseat - a rf'ing seatbelt install with no other ff'ing seats or LATCH installed seats in that row.
 

little sprouts

New member
Thanks for all the responses! We will be reinstalling the seats this morning.

I just wanted to post an update to this thread here. I re-read my vehicle manual tonight, and under the LATCH install it says to recline the seatbacks all the way. Under the seatbelt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference which to me implies that the reclining could be optional with a rf'ing seatbelt install.

I am not doubting that "under the seat belt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference." I have relooked in my 2008 Outlook Manual and cannot find anything related to this so I must be looking in the wrong place. Would you mind sending me the page numbers or where you found this information as it bothers me I can't find it!

Secondly, I've read and heard that a more upright FF seat is safer than a FF seat that is more reclined which lead me to question how to install a FF seat in this vehicle? Can anyone explain the physics of this to me?

Thanks again everybody for all your help!
jen
 

jen_nah

CPST Instructor
I just wanted to post an update to this thread here. I re-read my vehicle manual tonight, and under the LATCH install it says to recline the seatbacks all the way. Under the seatbelt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference which to me implies that the reclining could be optional with a rf'ing seatbelt install.

So my take on it is this:

- LATCH install (rf'ing or ff'ing) = seats reclined
- FF'ing seatbelt install = seats reclined
- RF'ing seatbelt install - seat may be upright provided that there isn't another seat installed that requires the seatback to be reclined.

**Both sides of the 60/40 split bench must be set to the same recline at all times when the vehicle is in motion. So if one seat is installed with LATCH, the whole bench must be reclined regardless of direction or method of installation of the other seats. Similarly, if a ff'ing seat is installed outboard, the entire bench must be reclined.

So in technicality, there is only one circumstance where the 2nd row bench would be allowed to be upright when installing the carseat - a rf'ing seatbelt install with no other ff'ing seats or LATCH installed seats in that row.

So, It is saying that even after you get the seat installed even with the recline (as both my girls are well past rf'ing limits) you can't move the vehicle seat into the upright position when using LATCH?

Hey what pillows are using on your dd Radian?
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Thanks for all the responses! We will be reinstalling the seats this morning.

I just wanted to post an update to this thread here. I re-read my vehicle manual tonight, and under the LATCH install it says to recline the seatbacks all the way. Under the seatbelt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference which to me implies that the reclining could be optional with a rf'ing seatbelt install.

I am not doubting that "under the seat belt install, it says to recline seatbacks to eliminate headrest interference." I have relooked in my 2008 Outlook Manual and cannot find anything related to this so I must be looking in the wrong place. Would you mind sending me the page numbers or where you found this information as it bothers me I can't find it!

Secondly, I've read and heard that a more upright FF seat is safer than a FF seat that is more reclined which lead me to question how to install a FF seat in this vehicle? Can anyone explain the physics of this to me?

Thanks again everybody for all your help!
jen

I have a 2007 Outlook, so it is possible they have made a revision of some type to the manual. I'm in the process of uploading pictures of the manual right now. :)

As for more upright ff'ing seat being safer than a more reclined ff'ing seat, there has been discussion about that on the board here previously. The only data that exists is that as long as a seat recline doesn't exceed 50*, there is no data indicating a decrease in safety. Most of the discussion that's happened around this topic has been hypothetical. Considering the natural design of the MA to be more reclined than a seat like the Radian, you have to assume that manufacturers have done testing on the issue.

With the exception of the middle seating location which does seem to be more affected by the reclined seatbacks, I don't honestly think that it makes that much of a difference in the recline of the seats anyways.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
So, It is saying that even after you get the seat installed even with the recline (as both my girls are well past rf'ing limits) you can't move the vehicle seat into the upright position when using LATCH?

Hey what pillows are using on your dd Radian?

It doesn't tell you to move the seat back into the upright position, but is very specific to recline it.

The pillow on the Radian is the comfy-soft - same pillow that comes with the radian 80, but since I have just the regular one I bought the pillow separately. It's ok to use the pillows with the 65 (just called "Radian" here in Canada, but it's the same as the 65. ;)) My carseat manual even includes instructions on their use. :thumbsup:
 

little sprouts

New member
I rechecked my manual again and Step 1 on page 69 of your manual is not in my manual at all. Weird. From your signature, I'll guess you are in Canada so maybe the manuals are different...Either way, at least now we have a definitive answer to our questions about the seat recline.

Thank you very much for helping our family clear up this matter.

As far as the angle for FF, thanks for that, too!

Thanks again, everyone. This morning we reclined the bench seat, then reinstalled the seats.

jen
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
You're welcome. :)

My guess would be that it could also be the difference between the 2007 and 2008 manual since I have a 2007 and you said your's is a 2008.

You can always call Saturn (GM) and ask for clarification about the manual as well. :thumbsup:
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,656
Messages
2,196,897
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top