overlapping your carseats? check here...

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

After some discussion on another thread regarding overlapping a marathon and Radian in a 3 across situation, I contacted SKJP to clarify my concerns. I described my concern as such

"Another question is about placing seats very close to one another. I know of some people who are placing Marathons so close to Radians that the Radian shoulder wings and eps foam at the head area is partially covered by the shoulder of the Marathon. Is it OK to have seats overlapping like that? something tells me it is unsafe and that the child in the Radian is at risk of their head hitting the outer shell of the Marathon. I have asked these people and they are techs and insist it is perfectly safe, but I just don't know. I know for sure it hasnt been crash tested like that. "

The response from Russ at SKJP is as follows

"Re: overlapping seats >> Based on your description, I would have agree with you. The inside of Radian’s side walls are lined with EPS foam (as are Britax’s) to absorb the impact energy of a child’s head contacting it in an accident. If the side of another seat if overlapping into/in front of the side wall, then the child’s head may strike the plastic of the overlapping seat, and not the EPS foam side walls of their own seat.

Because Radian’s side walls do not have to angle outward to the sides, so placing Radian seats close together is OK, because they will not overlao with each other – one of the design criteria for Radian.

I hope this addresses your concerns. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Have a very happy New Year!

Best regards,

Russ

"

I hope this information is helpful

CDNTech · Jan 1, 2008

First of all, Russ is not a tech and not someone I'd be taking advice from regarding this specific scenario. Not trying to be mean, just pointing out that this is *not* his area of expertise.

I have pictures of a Marathon and Radian overlapping each other. If you have ever had the opportunity to have these seats side by side and overlapping each other, you would see that the head striking the side of the plastic is not a concern.

I would also like to point out that the child IN the Marathon is at the *same* risk of their head striking the plastic shell of the Marathon.

This truly is not a risk to be worried about.

Patriot201 · Jan 1, 2008

Thanks for the update.

I appreciate you emailing Russ to get his input.

I guess I am just not that concerned with the overlapping "issue" since I think that this is a potential "problem" for any passenger seated next to a child restraint. I see possible potential for a passenger's head to strike a child restraint, but do not think it is practical to not have passengers seated next to child restraints. I guess I see the overlapping "issue" in much the same way. Perhaps I am oversimplifying, though.

I do appreciate you emailing Russ.

lovinwaves · Jan 1, 2008

If I had to have three children across in the backseat of a vehicle, and I only have 2 Marathons, 1 Radian, and a booster seat then I would pick the Radian hands down. The alternative is "less safe", imo. I will take the Radian in the middle with the Marathon slightly overlapping for my child any day over the booster

joolsplus3 · Jan 1, 2008

Should I be panicking then that my older kids are in backless boosters next to an FF Roundabout?

(They don't even have a harness to hold their upper bodies in place like the theoretical Radian rider has...)

I'll believe SK if they post some side crash test video of their seat next to a larger seat and the dummy's head records significant injury potential, I guess.

ThreeBeans · Jan 1, 2008

Russ is not a technician and not an engineer. He is a customer service representative.

The fact of the matter is that many people have to transport three children in a five-seater car. The goal of the technician is that every child leave safer than he came in, and three children in properly installed harnessed seats fulfills that obligation.

Unless you intend to fund the purchase of third row vehicles for everyone who faces this particular dilemma, I'm not sure what your goal is in pursuing this matter of OPINION.

keri1292 · Jan 1, 2008

The ideal situation is one child in a center row position. But, life isn't "ideal". For most of us, we have to make the safest choice possible. If I could get the Radian installed without overlap, I would prefer it, obviously. If not, I feel confident that they are still safe. As safe as without overlap, maybe not. But, there are no other choices. Nor has this been proven unsafe. :twocents:

Good point about backless boosters and other passengers as well.

azgirl71 · Jan 1, 2008

First as everyone else has already pointed out...Russ is a CS rep for SKJP not a tech or engineer. As long as each car seat is independently installed if they are overlapping it is fine. Now if they are not independentaly installed and overlapping that could be dangerous since the seats are probably not installed tight.

I have seen many pictures of Radians with MA's overlapping and would feel completely safe telling a parent it is fine to install them like that. I do not see how there could be additional rick of head hitting the shell. :twocents:

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

nice backpeddling ladies.

if I were a tech you'd all be like "thank you so much for alerting us! wow, we need to educate people and stop them from doing this!!"

this just goes to show that blah blah blah blah blah. You're clearly not listening to a word I am saying.

lovinwaves · Jan 1, 2008

*sigh*

mom2riley · Jan 1, 2008

I would go with what a tech says over Russ. He is not a CPST :twocents:

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

aidensmom02 said:
First of all, Russ is not a tech and not someone I'd be taking advice from regarding this specific scenario. Not trying to be mean, just pointing out that this is *not* his area of expertise.

I have pictures of a Marathon and Radian overlapping each other. If you have ever had the opportunity to have these seats side by side and overlapping each other, you would see that the head striking the side of the plastic is not a concern.

I would also like to point out that the child IN the Marathon is at the *same* risk of their head striking the plastic shell of the Marathon.

This truly is not a risk to be worried about.

I actually own both of those seats and I have had the opportunity to check it out. in my setup it IS a possible concern if the overlapping is severe. the marathon's hard outer shell does invade the protective space of the Radian's EPS foam.
the child IN the marathon isn't at risk of hitting the outside of the marathon's outer shell. Britax has placed the EPS foam on the inside of the seat, where the child sits. not on the outside of the shell, and last I heard, kids sit inside their seats, not outside of them

scatterbunny · Jan 1, 2008

Patriot201 said:
I guess I am just not that concerned with the overlapping "issue" since I think that this is a potential "problem" for any passenger seated next to a child restraint. I see possible potential for a passenger's head to strike a child restraint, but do not think it is practical to not have passengers seated next to child restraints. I guess I see the overlapping "issue" in much the same way.

And what about older teens and adults sitting next to the door? Their heads will likely hit the door pillars or window unless the car has side airbags. Does this mean we don't seat anyone next to doors, or seat anyone next to a carseat or passenger? Of course not!

At least one study shows that passengers fare better seated next to child restraints, but I can't seem to find the link. I don't see why a child in a carseat seated next to a slightly overlapped carseat wouldn't fare better than sitting next to nothing at all, either. *shrugging*

Is it ideal? Probably not. But do we freak out over a child riding in a carseat with only a thin cover and plastic shell (no EPS foam)? Usually not. Until recently the majority of seats did not contain EPS foam. I guess I don't see how it's any different (the child riding in a Radian with a Marathon's shell slightly overlapping)?

Again, the safety enhancements EPS foam offers are part of the reason we pay more for certain seats, so I can understand not wanting to sacrifice that safety enhancement, but saying categorically that any overlapping is unsafe isn't fair, and taking a saleperson's opinion as fact isn't something I'm willing to do.

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

mom2riley said:
I would go with what a tech says over Russ. He is not a CPST :twocents:

no, he's not a tech, but he knows the design of the Radian and how it is supposed to be used. would it be okay if I cut the EPS out of my Radian? why not shave off a couple inches of the shoulder section?

I guess since I'm not a tech my concern is falling on deaf ears. the last thread was locked because I was showing techs to be wrong and we can't have people seeing that, now can we?

lovinwaves · Jan 1, 2008

thrillhouse said:
I actually own both of those seats and I have had the opportunity to check it out. in my setup it IS a concern.

As a technician speaking to a parent with concerns of this. I would give you a few options:

Either buy a different carseat
Buy a different car
Put your child in a booster or seatbelt
Seperate the carseats and put them both outboard.

ETA: I would take your concerns regarding this issue straight to NHTSA or Safekids. Then if they deem this a problem or "unsafe" they will teach technicians this is not allowed. For now, this is not an issue and we as Technicians will continue to install child restraints next to each other as long as they are installed independently of each other regardless of overlapping. Because a child is always safer in a 5-point harness.

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

scatterbunny said:
And what about older teens and adults sitting next to the door? Their heads will likely hit the door pillars or window unless the car has side airbags. Does this mean we don't seat anyone next to doors, or seat anyone next to a carseat or passenger? Of course not!

At least one study shows that passengers fare better seated next to child restraints, but I can't seem to find the link. I don't see why a child in a carseat seated next to a slightly overlapped carseat wouldn't fare better than sitting next to nothing at all, either. *shrugging*

Is it ideal? Probably not. But do we freak out over a child riding in a carseat with only a thin cover and plastic shell (no EPS foam)? Usually not. Until recently the majority of seats did not contain EPS foam. I guess I don't see how it's any different (the child riding in a Radian with a Marathon's shell slightly overlapping)?

Again, the safety enhancements EPS foam offers are part of the reason we pay more for certain seats, so I can understand not wanting to sacrifice that safety enhancement, but saying categorically that any overlapping is unsafe isn't fair, and taking a saleperson's opinion as fact isn't something I'm willing to do.

I totally understand where you are coming from, I'm just saying is all. People were so quick to jump down my throat saying I was wrong wrong wrong, not willing to accept that *maybe* I have a point and if there is any way to avoid severe overlapping, it should be done. can we agree on that?

scatterbunny · Jan 1, 2008

ThreeBeans said:
Russ is not a technician and not an engineer. He is a customer service representative.

The fact of the matter is that many people have to transport three children in a five-seater car. The goal of the technician is that every child leave safer than he came in, and three children in properly installed harnessed seats fulfills that obligation.

Unless you intend to fund the purchase of third row vehicles for everyone who faces this particular dilemma, I'm not sure what your goal is in pursuing this matter of OPINION.

I wholeheartedly agree.

As long as all three seats are installed independently of the other (which simply means if you take one seat out, will the others still be installed tightly; a tightly installed seat should not mask a loosely installed seat), a slight overlap is not a concern. There is no data to support it being a concern, and in fact, the data that is available shows it being a benefit, not a risk.

Would I rather have my child's head hit plastic or EPS foam? Of course the answer would be EPS foam. But hard choices need to be made sometimes, and what would the alternatives be? Ultimately I think the Radian center/Marathon outboard set-up is a perfectly acceptable choice to make.

ThreeBeans · Jan 1, 2008

I think the usefulness of this thread is officially caput. Thread reported.

ZephyrBlue · Jan 1, 2008

As a parent, I would take the advice of a CPST over a customer service rep. any day. Someone who is giving their opinion, much as you are, thrillhouse, is not as credible as someone who is educated to speak on a particular subject.

I had reason to install my Radian and BV side by side in the backseat of DH's car this weekend. I feel much more comfortable with DD in a harnessed seat riding next to the BV, with some overlap, than I would with her at 31lbs in a booster, which was my only other option.

thrillhouse · Jan 1, 2008

lovinwaves said:
As a technician speaking to a parent with concerns of this. I would give you a few options:

Either buy a different carseat
Buy a different car
Put your child in a booster or seatbelt
Seperate the carseats and put them both outboard.

I only have two kids so they are both outboard. What I meant by my setup was my experiment with this overlapping. I found that sever overlapping was indeed possible and that it should be avoided. I'm honestly just trying to help, I'm sure most of you here can understand my car seat safety passion

Have you ever been so sure of yourself and trying to help someone be as safe as possible and nobody listens? like a neighbor who turns their 12 months old ffing? or their tiny child in a booster? or a 6 year old in a seatbelt with the shoulder portion behind their back? we know these things are not safe and I have a feeling that severly overlapping seats is next on that list.

overlapping your carseats? check here...

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