More info on the Kyle Miller incident?

My condolences to the Kyle Miller family.

I have a few questions about their incident. It may sound like I'm being a devil's advocate, but I'm really just trying to understand the situation and it affects my own decision making. I mean no disrespect at all to the Miller family and commend them for all their efforts.

- What kind of van and what year was the Miller van?
- The Miller family van seat belt failed. Judging from the website, the advocate against "inertial release" seat belts would seem to suggest that it was an older van with the "side button" seat belt clasps. Are top release clasps that much safer against inertial releases?
- Since this was a seat belt failure, it would seem that even a 5 point harness could fail in exactly the same way. 5 points are definitely safer than 3 points, but in the 5 point clasp would seem to also be susceptible to failure just like the regular belt?
- With a car seat, you also rely on the LATCH belts to secure the chair. Even if installed correctly, there is still a chance that the LATCH hooks or the belt itself could fail too
- Had an adult been sitting in Kyle's position, they would have perished because it was the belt that failed. Thus the issue is bad seat belt, not 5 point harness.

Comments?

I do not want to take away the excellent message from the Millers that 5 pt harnesses are safer and that children are safer in car seats for as long as possible.

It would seem that if you want make sure you and your passengers (of all ages) are safe, you need to keep up on manufacturer recalls, keep the pressure on manufacturers to maintain high safety and do testing, and run around in cars no older than 6 or so years.

- BTW, how is it that baby seats expire but car seat belts do not?

I'm new to this particular car seat community as well so I'm not sure what the 'party line' is over here, but I'll give you my take.

BTW, no disrespect is meant to the family in any way, shape or form, and I'm obviously just an outside observer.

If you look at the pictures in the videos, both children were in booster seats. The boosters were used incorrectly (lots of added padding underneath) and in at least one pic I've seen (on the video??), the belt was twisted. I'm guessing the children were allowed to buckle their own belts. If that is the case, there is a distinct possibility that Kyle buckled himself in--incorrectly. It may not be a case of the seat belt failing so much as the seat belt not being properly buckled in the first place.

That said, if in fact it was a case of the seat belt failing, I would much rather my preschool child be in a properly harnessed seat, including a tether anchor, than in a booster. If the seat belt does fail, the car seat itself still offers some protection for the child even if they are thrown from the car, and I'm guessing a tether anchor would keep the kid in the car, even if they were tossed around a bit.

While I love the message of extended harnessing in the video, a child of the proper size and maturity is NOT unsafe in a booster seat. Seat belt failure is very, very rare.

There ya go. My :twocents: .

And car seats expire more because of the plastic they are made from than the harnesses themselves. It is the plastic that tends to give way in an older seat. But then, I'd even replace my seat belts after a certain point in an older car.

:yeahthat:

Cedarmom said:

I'm new to this particular car seat community as well so I'm not sure what the 'party line' is over here, but I'll give you my take.

BTW, no disrespect is meant to the family in any way, shape or form, and I'm obviously just an outside observer.

If you look at the pictures in the videos, both children were in booster seats. The boosters were used incorrectly (lots of added padding underneath) and in at least one pic I've seen (on the video??), the belt was twisted. I'm guessing the children were allowed to buckle their own belts. If that is the case, there is a distinct possibility that Kyle buckled himself in--incorrectly. It may not be a case of the seat belt failing so much as the seat belt not being properly buckled in the first place.

That said, if in fact it was a case of the seat belt failing, I would much rather my preschool child be in a properly harnessed seat, including a tether anchor, than in a booster. If the seat belt does fail, the car seat itself still offers some protection for the child even if they are thrown from the car, and I'm guessing a tether anchor would keep the kid in the car, even if they were tossed around a bit.

While I love the message of extended harnessing in the video, a child of the proper size and maturity is NOT unsafe in a booster seat. Seat belt failure is very, very rare.

There ya go. My :twocents: .

And car seats expire more because of the plastic they are made from than the harnesses themselves. It is the plastic that tends to give way in an older seat. But then, I'd even replace my seat belts after a certain point in an older car.

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Since you said it so well I will just :yeahthat: your post.

Just wanted to add that two times I was caught off-guard that my child's 5 point harness was unbuckled from the car. Once when a well meaning but clueless relative sat next to my child's car seat (accidentally unbuckled when they were trying to figure out how to buckle their own seat). Once it may have been from someone accidentally releasing the buckle when sitting in the car during a stop on a long trip.

Always check to ensure that the booster is buckled. Always check to ensure that the car seat harness is properly buckled/snug/etc AND that the car seat is buckled to the car.

I was lucky to have caught both instances before an accident occurred but both times the car was driven at least a short while while the 5 point harness was not restrained by the seat belt.

wondering1 said:

Just wanted to add that two times I was caught off-guard that my child's 5 point harness was unbuckled from the car. Once when a well meaning but clueless relative sat next to my child's car seat (accidentally unbuckled when they were trying to figure out how to buckle their own seat). Once it may have been from someone accidentally releasing the buckle when sitting in the car during a stop on a long trip.

Always check to ensure that the booster is buckled. Always check to ensure that the car seat harness is properly buckled/snug/etc AND that the car seat is buckled to the car.

I was lucky to have caught both instances before an accident occurred but both times the car was driven at least a short while while the 5 point harness was not restrained by the seat belt.

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I agree.

Every trip, every time, I look at the harness(no twists or looseness), double check it, glance at the seatbelt buckle to make sure its there, and give the seat a little tug to make sure the install hasnt loosened. I've made it a habit. It takes all of 20 seconds, but I can't drive til I do it.

I agree with a lot of what the pp said.

What the Miller family started out with was getting kids back in 5pt harnesses using LATCH. What they were orginally misinformed or just didn't know at the time was that LATCH has a weight limit and after that the vehicle seatbelt only must be used to secure the hwh seat into place.

A top tether will most likely not keep a child restraint in a vehicle. It's not designed to withstand the crash forces alone like a seatbelt/lower anchors are. Plus then you have a HUGE projectile in your vehicle that could possible kill other occupants.

Could the restraint have helped Kyle even if he still was ejected from the vehicle? Maybe but maybe not. This is one of those scenerioes with to many unknowns. Also remember if your ejected from the vehicle you are at a higher risk of being rolled over.

The Miller's & use CPS world will never know what really happened to Kyle. It's a very sad tragedy that I wish they never had to experiance. At least his legecy will protect other children.

this thread really made me double think that Parkway I was looking at for my 5 1/2 yr old but at the same time hmmmmmm... Very informative I'd say

dimsumdaddy said:

- BTW, how is it that baby seats expire but car seat belts do not?

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I wouldn't say that vehicle seat belts "don't" expire, because they certainly don't have an indefinite life span, whether they've been in an accident or not they are only good for so long, in my humble opinion any way. I don't know what their "life" is though, 10 years? I have no idea to be honest.

The responses so far are great If you scroll down the screen you'll also find links to past threads about KDMF....

CRS said:

I wouldn't say that vehicle seat belts "don't" expire, because they certainly don't have an indefinite life span, whether they've been in an accident or not they are only good for so long, in my humble opinion any way. I don't know what their "life" is though, 10 years? I have no idea to be honest.

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Right, occupied seatbelts are supposed to be replaced after a crash & we have had discussions here in the past about seeking replacement seatbelts on older vehicles -- especially when the seatbelt is fraying or has holes, cuts, etc. & if it's been soaked by harmful liquids (even rather innocent liquids repeatedly) to the point that the seatbelt cannot be used correctly or it prevents correct use of a carseat. Ex: a couple of my friend's 25 year old Volvo seatbelts do not retract reliably *yikes*

Some vehicles may have warnings hidden somewhere in the manuals about having seatbelts checked by a dealer after so many years Not sure.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=8619 AND

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=53841#poststop

As a board member of the Kyle David Miller Foundation, please let me address the questions I have knowledge on as an informed source regarding the accident....

dimsumdaddy said:

- What kind of van and what year was the Miller van?

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1998 Toyota Sienna

- Since this was a seat belt failure, it would seem that even a 5 point harness could fail in exactly the same way. 5 points are definitely safer than 3 points, but in the 5 point clasp would seem to also be susceptible to failure just like the regular belt?

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The point the Millers were making was that had Kyle been in a 5-point harness seat, even if his seatbelt that was used to secure his seat into the vehicle had failed, Kyle would still have been restrained by the child restraint, ejection from the van would have much less likely, and should it have occured, the seat may have absorbed the impact with the ground, rather than Kyle's neck.

- With a car seat, you also rely on the LATCH belts to secure the chair. Even if installed correctly, there is still a chance that the LATCH hooks or the belt itself could fail too

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You can only use LATCH to the stated maximum weight of your vehicle - thereafter, you should use a combination of seatbelt with top tether. Correct - see answer above.

- Had an adult been sitting in Kyle's position, they would have perished because it was the belt that failed. Thus the issue is bad seat belt, not 5 point harness.

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Correct - this issue for Kyle was the seatbelt failure. However, the foundation has expanded upon as it has matured over the last year of operation. Please review our website now - you will see a wealth of information on the benefits of extended harnessing (unrealted to seatbelt failure) and extended rear-facing.