Tethering ffing w/d-ring

melniemi

New member
According to Chevy there is not a 'sound' place in the cargo space of my van (02 Venture) to install aftermarket TA's. The only ta's I have are on the seats themselves so maybe they are telling the truth? It seems strange but? So, would it be better to tether ffing by using the d-ring wrapped around the seat frame than not tething at all? What is the reasoning for not using it? I'm assuming it's because it isn't tested at that high of a weight or didn't pass. But I really don't know. It seems like even if it did break in a crash, it would be better than not tethering at all?
Thanks for any input!
 
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ZephyrBlue

New member
The only thing I've read is that a D-Ring is not designed to withstand the forces of a crash when used FF (the forces are considerably lower on a RF tether). It seems logical that it would be better than nothing at all, but I wouldn't do it because there's no way to predict how/if it would change the way the seat behaved during the impact. I'm anxious to see how some of the technical-minded CPST's respond, though!
 

scatterbunny

New member
The official answer from Britax is NO, the d-ring is not strong enough. I wouldn't be comfortable doing it because we don't know how it would cause the seat to act in a crash if it were to fail. To me, it's different than using approved anchors over the weight limit. What seat are you talking about? If it's a Britax seat, I'd install with a lap/shoulderbelt and use the lockoff. That acts in a similar fashion as a top tether.
 

bensmom

Admin - CPS Technician
Are you using all of the available tether anchors? I definitely would not use the D-ring. You could check with ez-on about a heavy duty tether.

I agree with Jenny, though. I'd probably use a Britax with FF lockoffs if I had to.
 

strollerfreak

Senior Community Member
See...this is my position too. Because of seating constraints in my vehicle, DD's DC must go in a lapbelt-only seating position that has no possible way to be retrofitted with a TA.

I do have a spot where I could tether to something that is not an approved TA (leg of the seat the CRS is on, or seatbelt cabling) and I keep wondering if I'd be better off using an unapproved tether anchor over nothing at all with just the lap-belt only...:confused:

Right now I'm not...because I don't know of any research that shows what might happen...and I don't want to use her as a crash-test dummy. She's too cute...LOL
 

Suzibeck

Active member
My concern would be that if the D-ring breaks, then the tether strap with it's metal hook will be flying around my vehicle. What kind of damage could that do to a child? :eek:

I too, have a lapbelt only in the back of my van with no tether anchor. I don't often have to use a seat there, but when I do, I really wish I could tether it. I look forward to the day I can get a newer, more user friendly van!
 

thepeach80

Senior Community Member
My concern would be that if the D-ring breaks, then the tether strap with it's metal hook will be flying around my vehicle. What kind of damage could that do to a child? :eek:

How is this different than using a TA past the weight limit, which I think most of us reccomend even though it's not tested. The theory being it's better than nothing?
 

melniemi

New member
Thanks everyone for your input. I was considering the ezon heavy duty ta's but chevy said there is no 'sound' place to install them in the cargo area. I have 1 ta for 2 kids. So it seems like I will need to keep one in a booster - mostly because I really don't want to climb over a seat and try to put baby in her seat rfing in the 3rd row. Sounds petty, but true. Hmmm...I was thinking about the 'using ta's over the weight limit - regent - being better than nothing and thought that perhaps a d-ring would serve the same purpose. A seat that doesn't require a top tether could go in that seat. The radian didn't work but perhaps the true fit will. The regent is really the only seat that will last long but if I can get 2 years out of a true fit, it'd be better than nothing.
 

Jeanum

Admin - CPS Technician Emeritus
Staff member
How is this different than using a TA past the weight limit, which I think most of us reccomend even though it's not tested. The theory being it's better than nothing?

Top tethering above a vehicle manufacturer's specified LATCH weight limit is recommended based on the fact that the carseat manual spells out to do so in the case of the Regent for kids over 50 lbs., and also based on some careful recommendations from the Safe Ride News, who say there is little to no evidence of the top tether anchor failing with higher weight harnessed seats, right? :) I don't see anything in the carseat manuals saying to top tether a FF seat using the RF D-ring tether connector strap as a substitute for a vehicle without an approved top tether anchor, nor in the current CPST curriculum, nor do we see Safe Ride News advocating the use of the D-ring for FF tethering. The D-ring itself might fail if used in a FF install as opposed to a tested RF installation, which likely involves different crash forces/dynamics than a FF installation would. Those are big differences in my book. :twocents:
 

Niea

New member
Obviously tethering is ideal if you can do it, but if you can't you can't. My DD rides daily in an older car that has no TAs at all -- yes I wish I could tether her seat but I can't. I still think it's safe, though, installed tightly with the seatbelt using the lockoffs (which I have to use anyway because the belts don't lock either). It sucks, but it's not the end of the world, so if you can't make it work I wouldn't sweat it.

I would just as soon keep the seat installed correctly, even if it means untethered, than risk whatever might happen by tethering it in an unapproved manner.
 

thepeach80

Senior Community Member
I'm not saying I'd ever do it or reccomend it, but this has got me thinking and I'm sure eventually someone will ask this of me. :) Has SRN ever thought about this and put out an official statement that it's a bad idea (not that I think they are the end all, be all of this)? If they've never give it thought, then their saying it's o.k. to use the TA past the weight limit isn't comparable IMO.

What would happen if the TA broken? We're tethering it by the leg of the seat I'm assuming so I don't see the crash forces throwing the tether up and over the seat in a normal frontal crash, but I could be wrong. If this is the case, the worst that would happen is the seat ends up w/ the 34" of head excursion which it would've done anyways in an untethered seat. I don't know. :confused:
 

Niea

New member
Jennifer, you're talking about FF tethering to the vehicle seat leg up and over the back? Or did I just read that totally wrong?

In a FF situation, I wonder if the forces on the tether would be sufficient to compromise the vehicle seat leg, preventing the vehicle seat from acting as it should in a collision.
 

thepeach80

Senior Community Member
Jennifer, you're talking about FF tethering to the vehicle seat leg up and over the back? Or did I just read that totally wrong?

In a FF situation, I wonder if the forces on the tether would be sufficient to compromise the vehicle seat leg, preventing the vehicle seat from acting as it should in a collision.

Yes, I'm not sure where else you would hook up a d-ring to for ffing besides the leg of the seat? I never thought about how the crash forces would effect the leg on the seat if it did in fact hold.
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
How is this different than using a TA past the weight limit, which I think most of us reccomend even though it's not tested. The theory being it's better than nothing?

TA's are tested to a minimum of 70lbs and some manufacturers test over that. I haven't read of a case of TA's failing either, so the difference is that based on history and testing of the vehicle TA's, the likelihood of it failing is incredibly small. And that in the event that it did fail, it still would've provided a measure of benefit.

The d-ring on the other hand, I think would affect the crash dynamics of the seat. It's on webbing for one thing, and it would be under much more stress than it would most likely be under with a rf'ing seat on rebound. I suspect that the d-ring would fail quite easily if used with a ff'ing carseat. Not to mention the manual explicitly telling you not to do it. ;)

Thanks everyone for your input. I was considering the ezon heavy duty ta's but chevy said there is no 'sound' place to install them in the cargo area.

Have you talked to ez-on? I know that they've been able to help parents come up with solutions that work in situations where vehicles don't have an easy spot - I know another poster, defrost, had this problem in her vehicle and they were able to come up with a solution. So I'd call them before ruling out the possibility of the ez-on working.

My DD rides daily in an older car that has no TAs at all -- yes I wish I could tether her seat but I can't.

Have you checked to see if you can have TA's retrofitted? Most older vehicles can have TA's added. If you post the make/model/year then somebody with a LATCH manual can look it up for you and tell you if it's a possibility. Many manufacturers will install at least 1 for free. Some older vehicles even have predrilled holes, so it's just a matter of getting the anchor hardware and you could even do it yourself. The vehicle manual would reference the locations if there are predrilled holes. :thumbsup:
 

thepeach80

Senior Community Member
TA's are tested to a minimum of 70lbs and some manufacturers test over that.

If they're tested to 70#, but why do we have a list of weight maxes for all vehicles, most of which is 48#? Why wouldn't they all list the TA max weight at 70# isntead? There are only 3 that I can think of that let you use a carseat tether to 60# and a vest to 80#, the rest are generally 40-48#.
 

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