Swedish RF seats for 2012 Subaru Outback

U

Unregistered

Guest
Hello all,

I am considering three seats--Britax MaxWay, AxKid MiniKid, and Besafe IziKid Plus to use in my 2012 Outback. I have read everything I can find on this and other sites regarding these three seats and installation in an Outback but I am finding conflicting information and was hoping you could help me sort things out to make sure I make the safest choices for my daughter.

I cannot find any info on how big these seats are installed. I am hoping to be able to keep the front seats pushed all the way back, or at least almost all the way back. Does anyone know if this will be possible with any of these seats?

I am hoping to install in the rear center (I know this will require a seat belt installation). I have contacted the manufacturers and they indicate this is possible. However, I am confused as to how I would tether in a center install since there will be no seat in front of the carseat. Where would I pass the tether if the install video shows it being passed around the front seat?

Some sources say wrapping the tether around the front seat will mess with the airbags and other say it will not. I have contacted Subaru but cannot get in touch with anyone I trust is giving me the actually correct answer. Does anyone know the official answer to this question? I know there has been a lot of debate on this topic on this site. While I love debates I'm just trying to see if anyone has a formal answer. :)

Can you share with me why you might buy a seat rated to 18 kilos when seats rated to 25 are available? Is it to save space in the car or are there other reasons? I'd love to know the thought process behind purchasing a lower weight limit seat.

Thanks for your thoughts and info!
 
ADS

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Why are you looking at importing Swedish seats? US seats go to 50 pounds rear facing (23 kilos) and are far less expensive and install more easily.

The Graco Extend2Fit, for instance, rear faces to 50 pounds and will fit easily in the middle of the Subaru, is very compact, is only $200, and is legal to use here. The Safety 1st Grow and Go EX Air is the same.

To answer your other question, an 18 kilo seat would have gotten my older daughter to nearly seven years old rear facing, my younger to well over five years old. There would have been zero need for a 25 kilo seats rear facing for either. My older didn't hit 25 kilos until she was nine. My younger was six.

Kids grow at different rates. That's why even in Sweden they have seats that rear face to 18 kilos and seats that rear face to 25 kilos. That's why we have seats in the US that rear face to 33 pounds and rear face to 50 pounds.

Wendy
 

Nedra

Car-Seat.org Ambassador
I am a little confused -- are you in the US? If so, I completely agree with Wendy that it is unnecessary to import a Swedish seat. The practice of importing high RF seats from Sweden started when the highest RF weight limit on US seats was 30 lbs. My daughter is 3.5 and weighs 30 lbs now....the 40 lb RF weight limit will likely get her to over 5 years old.

She might even be able to RF until she goes straight into a booster like they do in Sweden. There's just no need for a 25 kilo seat in her case. If I didn't feel comfortable flipping her around at 40 lbs, I would get an Extend2Fit and RF her until 50 lbs and then go straight into a booster. I personally feel comfortable with her in a FF harnessed seat at 4 years, so I doubt that I will buy a higher weight RF seat unless she is still wanting to stay RF after 40 lbs.

The point, as Wendy said, is that not all kids need such high weight limits in order to get to an age where FF or even boostering becomes a relatively safe option. Although importing a 25 kilo seat might be possible, a legal, economical, and very safe alternative exists with the current seats here in the US.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

lgenne

New member
Agreed. Unless you specifically need to rear face a kid between 50 and 55 pounds (who still fits the Swedish seats by height) there's little reason to import these days, and plenty of reasons not to.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Why is my location relevant to your recommendations? My kid is this big, my car is this kind, I have no price cap, and I want the safest seat. It seems to me that we should be discussing the safest seat, whether it be on the US market, the Swedish market, the German market, whatever.

There seem to be two factions on this forum. The first faction seems to argue that seats that could pass the Plus Test are best and should be purchased by anyone able to afford given that they will protect our children. The second faction seems to argue that US citizens should purchase US seats and not European seats. The rest of us just visit the forum for help wading through so much info available online and elsewhere. We just want to come out at the end with the safest seat, whatever that is. I am only posting here to do what I can to keep my daughter safe.

To that end, here are my questions. I hope you can help me find the answers I need. I am not trying to be argumentative. After reading scores of threads on this sight, these are the questions I'm left with.

Why do supporters of the Plus Test have problems with the ADAC tests? What is purportedly wrong with the ADAC tests? I'm wondering what is wrong with the tests as a whole, not with specific errors the organization has made, etc. Why wouldn't it be best to buy seats that pass both tests?

Does the Plus Test truly test for and identify specific seats that are safer or is it mainly meant to show, in a more general way, that rear facing is safest?

Does anyone have any info as to how US seats fare in comparison to European seats in crash tests?

I do not care whether I get a US seat or a European seat. I do not care whether it is expensive or cheap. I also don't care whether there is a US seat that has a comparable weight or height limit so some Swedish seat. I just want "the safest seat" that will fit my car. I don't believe that all US rear facing seats are as safe as all European rear facing seats because that type of claim is simply illogical and contentless. One seat has to be designed or built or inspected better than another. Similarly, I don't believe that all European seats are safer. However, I can't help but think that the European effort to rate seats and the US lack of effort must be telling.

To those supporting the purchase of US seats--don't you worry about why we don't bother to catalogue and release findings for carseat ratings in the US? One of the main reasons I'm interested in a European seat is because there are European organizations that care enough about the seats to test them. This at least leaves open the possibility that manufacturers will want to do well. In the US, democracy rules and every seat is somehow, magically, as good as every other (again, illogical, impossible, etc.). Are we really to believe that manufacturers selling to such an audience are going to be trying that hard?
 

wendytthomas

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
Not all US seats are equal. They all pass the same safety tests. And those test are VERY stringent, and not very different from Europe's. Europe has side impact testing. The US has proposed standards, and many manufacturers are using them (and they're coming pretty much straight out of Europe).

We're just baffled why you'd go through so much money, time, and effort for something you just really don't need. There's no way to know which seat in the world is the best. If that's the one question you want answered, we can't. Sorry. Europe rates, we don't. We all have very strict testing. If you think of it like GPAs and you're a company hiring a recent graduate, you have your options of students with a 3.8, 3.9, and 4.0. The 4.0 is obviously better in grades, but is a terrible fit for your company. Are you getting a crappy hire in the 3.8 GPA who is a perfect fit? NO! You're getting a GREAT hire that fits what you need best.

Same thing with carseats. None of them are failing. The tests are so stringent that none are less than an A. They're all very good seats and they will all work very well in a crash provided you use them properly. So since it's very important you use it properly, it's important to get something that works for you. Not what just number crunching says is best.

Have you read a European carseat's manual? Any of them. Pick one (it doesn't matter if it's Swedish or German, they're all European seats and it's done as one. ECE R44 and ECE R129 are the regulations on European seats). Because they have to accommodate so many different languages the manuals are mostly pictures, and then the warranty and scant warnings are done over a dozen languages. They don't install, as you know, like a traditional US seat, and our cars are not made for them. If you had a Swedish seat in a Volvo it would be cake. A Swedish seat in a Japanese car made for the US market is doable. But it's hard work.

So since it's not necessarily safer, and since it's far more expensive, and since it's so much harder to use because the manual has two pages of English (British English at that, so we need to do our own dialectical translation), there's not a lot of return on investment for getting a Swedish seat when they only go to 2.5 kilos more than US seats.

Your location matters because as technicians, we cannot advise you to do something illegal. Whether that's turn your 11 month old forward facing in a seat that doesn't allow for it, harness your eight year old in a seat that's outgrown, move your three year old to the seatbelt alone, or buy a foreign seat. Ten years ago we would make exceptions for the very large child who had no US options. Nowadays, for all the reasons listed above, we wouldn't.

Wendy
 

Nedra

Car-Seat.org Ambassador
Why is my location relevant to your recommendations? My kid is this big, my car is this kind, I have no price cap, and I want the safest seat. It seems to me that we should be discussing the safest seat, whether it be on the US market, the Swedish market, the German market, whatever.


I asked about your location because I wasn't sure whether you were in Europe and were unaware of our forum section that is specific to International visitors.

You also asked about the reasons for buying an 18 kilo car seat when a 25 kilo car seat is available. Your location is relevant because, for most of us, the hassle and expense of importing a foreign seat is enough of a deterrent that we don't think of European seats as being "available" options here in the US. If I lived in Europe, I might get a higher weight convertible seat if I liked other features about it. But since I live in the US, my reasoning for buying seats with a 40 lb rear-facing limit is influenced by the fact that those are the seats with features that I like, that will get my child to an appropriate age to forward-face, and that are available in the market where I live.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

lgenne

New member
Your location is also important because of the advanced airbags in the US. Many car manufacturers have restrictions against tethering or bracing. Maybe (MAYBE) you would increase safety for your kid a little bit, but dramatically reduce it for yourself or your passenger. It's not a question that they really keep in mind when designing cars for the US. (And a European vehicle with the exact same name as a US vehicle is not at all guaranteed to bear any resemblance, even if we're talking about the exterior, certainly not interior details.)

Speaking as a parent who owns (and uses, in an informed way, i.e., only in the 3rd row) a Swedish car seat: I would not buy one today. US car seats have made huge improvements in the last few years. There are plenty of crappy ones on the market still (from a usability/fit to vehicle/fit to kid standpoint) but there are really great ones too.

I don't think there's much of a faction around here that still thinks Swedish seats are much better than US seats. Unless you're reading a lot of posts by AdventureDad, who is hardly unbiased. He makes his living exporting Swedish car seats.
 

Mommy!

Active member
All of the above just about covers it. One more point I would like to add, which has already been mentioned, but this is a very concise way of stating it:

When someone asks which seat would be the safest for their child, the answer ultimately comes down to "The safest seat is one that fits your child, fits and installs well in your car, and that you will use correctly every single time". A Swedish seat will not install correctly in a north American car, and for this reason alone will not be as safe as one designed to do so (i.e. US certified).
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Not all US seats are equal. They all pass the same safety tests. And those test are VERY stringent, and not very different from Europe's. Europe has side impact testing. The US has proposed standards, and many manufacturers are using them (and they're coming pretty much straight out of Europe).

We're just baffled why you'd go through so much money, time, and effort for something you just really don't need. There's no way to know which seat in the world is the best. If that's the one question you want answered, we can't. Sorry. Europe rates, we don't. We all have very strict testing. If you think of it like GPAs and you're a company hiring a recent graduate, you have your options of students with a 3.8, 3.9, and 4.0. The 4.0 is obviously better in grades, but is a terrible fit for your company. Are you getting a crappy hire in the 3.8 GPA who is a perfect fit? NO! You're getting a GREAT hire that fits what you need best.

Same thing with carseats. None of them are failing. The tests are so stringent that none are less than an A. They're all very good seats and they will all work very well in a crash provided you use them properly. So since it's very important you use it properly, it's important to get something that works for you. Not what just number crunching says is best.

Have you read a European carseat's manual? Any of them. Pick one (it doesn't matter if it's Swedish or German, they're all European seats and it's done as one. ECE R44 and ECE R129 are the regulations on European seats). Because they have to accommodate so many different languages the manuals are mostly pictures, and then the warranty and scant warnings are done over a dozen languages. They don't install, as you know, like a traditional US seat, and our cars are not made for them. If you had a Swedish seat in a Volvo it would be cake. A Swedish seat in a Japanese car made for the US market is doable. But it's hard work.

So since it's not necessarily safer, and since it's far more expensive, and since it's so much harder to use because the manual has two pages of English (British English at that, so we need to do our own dialectical translation), there's not a lot of return on investment for getting a Swedish seat when they only go to 2.5 kilos more than US seats.

Your location matters because as technicians, we cannot advise you to do something illegal. Whether that's turn your 11 month old forward facing in a seat that doesn't allow for it, harness your eight year old in a seat that's outgrown, move your three year old to the seatbelt alone, or buy a foreign seat. Ten years ago we would make exceptions for the very large child who had no US options. Nowadays, for all the reasons listed above, we wouldn't.

Wendy

I know these posts and this thread is rather dated. However, I was wandering the internet and came across this feed and had to post my opinion. I am not a "technician" just a dad who cares for his kid and has traveled the world several times over.

Just to set the playing field, I only have 1 kid and when he was born I did extensive research on car seats (as do most people here). I have a Ford truck, a chevy race car, a New Volvo XC90, a Chevy Suburban and a new Subaru Outback. All vehicles are late models 2013 plus.

I agree with the first user who opened this question and her/his extensive repositikning of their question. Bravo to you for your research and willingness to go beyond what is pushed in your face.

As for Wendy, I found your answer as well to be the most educated and well detailed as a response.

However, aside from weight requirements for rear facing and baseline crash tests, there are other functional and critical safety features in most European seats vs. The US.

I was saddened when I learned that the main reason the US does not promote, approve, rate or push seats with a foot rod is because the car seat test vehicle in govt standards does not have a floor in which to place/affix the rod.

Surprisingly, a new report from consumer reports excitedly says car seats with a foot rod reduce head impact by 45+ percent! Further elaborate that such was an invention from Europe and they are glad it has made its way to the US. Yet only 4 of the entire lineup of seats had it. By the way, none of those 4 were any of the ones you all recommended to this member asking this basic question.

I agree that noone nor none of us have a crystal ball and can say which seat is the "safest" and I agree that all seats will fail at some point or in the "right" accident. But why not try for the best. Of course, a seat belt is only as safe as it is installed (so regardless of your budget, install correctly). But there is a reason rich families and those that are celebrities wither ise European seats (imported) or US seats from European manufacturers.

Here is the link to the consumer reports report: https://www.consumerreports.org/inf...ts-an-additional-margin-of-safety-in-a-crash/

As a side note: the Izi plus by Besafe has not only a 55lbs limit rear facing (only rear facing allowed), it has rear tether, foot rod and a seat extender/recoil plate. I question this: if all test are equal and all seats are equal, why have all those other features (one of which recently being touted by consumer reports as amazing) if a seat belt alone or isofix alone is "safe"/"good"/"secure"/"the standard". Something tells me that years of engineering show more is needed to anchor a car seat to a vehicle to prevent it from moving around in a crash.

I am an American and love large and fast cars, but I dont see the allure in need cup holders for my toddler rear facing over practical safety features.

I have had the nuna infant with a foot rod (only one in US when I bought - and before Consumer Reports report) amazing infant seat. And I currently have the be safe izi plus.

Cheers
 

murphydog77

Admin - CPST Instructor
Staff member
I know these posts and this thread is rather dated. However, I was wandering the internet and came across this feed and had to post my opinion. I am not a "technician" just a dad who cares for his kid and has traveled the world several times over.

Just to set the playing field, I only have 1 kid and when he was born I did extensive research on car seats (as do most people here). I have a Ford truck, a chevy race car, a New Volvo XC90, a Chevy Suburban and a new Subaru Outback. All vehicles are late models 2013 plus.

I agree with the first user who opened this question and her/his extensive repositikning of their question. Bravo to you for your research and willingness to go beyond what is pushed in your face.

As for Wendy, I found your answer as well to be the most educated and well detailed as a response.

However, aside from weight requirements for rear facing and baseline crash tests, there are other functional and critical safety features in most European seats vs. The US.

I was saddened when I learned that the main reason the US does not promote, approve, rate or push seats with a foot rod is because the car seat test vehicle in govt standards does not have a floor in which to place/affix the rod.

Surprisingly, a new report from consumer reports excitedly says car seats with a foot rod reduce head impact by 45+ percent! Further elaborate that such was an invention from Europe and they are glad it has made its way to the US. Yet only 4 of the entire lineup of seats had it. By the way, none of those 4 were any of the ones you all recommended to this member asking this basic question.

I agree that noone nor none of us have a crystal ball and can say which seat is the "safest" and I agree that all seats will fail at some point or in the "right" accident. But why not try for the best. Of course, a seat belt is only as safe as it is installed (so regardless of your budget, install correctly). But there is a reason rich families and those that are celebrities wither ise European seats (imported) or US seats from European manufacturers.

Here is the link to the consumer reports report: https://www.consumerreports.org/inf...ts-an-additional-margin-of-safety-in-a-crash/

As a side note: the Izi plus by Besafe has not only a 55lbs limit rear facing (only rear facing allowed), it has rear tether, foot rod and a seat extender/recoil plate. I question this: if all test are equal and all seats are equal, why have all those other features (one of which recently being touted by consumer reports as amazing) if a seat belt alone or isofix alone is "safe"/"good"/"secure"/"the standard". Something tells me that years of engineering show more is needed to anchor a car seat to a vehicle to prevent it from moving around in a crash.

I am an American and love large and fast cars, but I dont see the allure in need cup holders for my toddler rear facing over practical safety features.

I have had the nuna infant with a foot rod (only one in US when I bought - and before Consumer Reports report) amazing infant seat. And I currently have the be safe izi plus.

Cheers

Unfortunately, comparing the Euro market (specifically Sweden) to the US market is like comparing apples to oranges. The US test is tougher than 97.6% of all real-life crashes so really, it does a good job of approximating very severe crashes. We do know that load legs mitigate a tremendous amount of crash force and when used in conjunction with rigid LATCH, the results can be phenomenal. That's if you're in a crash and need the safety features, which fortunately, most of us don't need. However, aside from the theoretical safety benefits, there are practical problems that get in the way of using safety features such as load legs, rigid LATCH, and dual rear-facing tethers found on Swedish seats.

Vehicles that have in-floor storage, such as the Dodge Stow and Go compartments and Honda in-floor storage areas, don't allow load leg use. Carseat manufacturers are doing a better job of making better adjusting load legs for center humps, but there can still be compatibility issues. Most parents want their newborns in the center seating position, but don't have dedicated LATCH positions there and can't take advantage of rigid LATCH there. And because of the latest generation of front seat airbags, rear-facing tethers are discouraged because we don't have dedicated anchors under the front seats where we can attach them. Looping the tethers around the front seats like we did just a few years ago can interfere with the wiring for the airbags causing issues for the airbag sensors.

We have plenty of choice for rear-facing seats to 50 lbs. with more on the way this summer. Celebrities and wealthy people who have a social media presence are given carseats in exchange for a few pictures—it's nuts.

I agree with you that the US needs to up its game in terms of its test sled. It's not going to happen during this administration so we're years off of any regulatory changes there, but we do need to get away from the decades-old rig we're using. Fortunately, Consumer Reports has taken it upon themselves to show what testing would look like on a more modern test sled.
 

Car-Seat.Org Facebook Group

Forum statistics

Threads
219,655
Messages
2,196,895
Members
13,530
Latest member
onehitko860

You must read your carseat and vehicle owner’s manual and understand any relevant state laws. These are the rules you must follow to restrain your children safely. All opinions at Car-Seat.Org are those of the individual author for informational purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect any policy or position of Carseat Media LLC. Car-Seat.Org makes no representations as to accuracy, completeness, currentness, suitability, or validity of any information on this site and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. If you are unsure about information provided to you, please visit a local certified technician. Before posting or using our website you must read and agree to our TERMS.

Graco is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Britax is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org! Nuna Baby is a Proud Sponsor of Car-Seat.Org!

Please  Support Car-Seat.Org  with your purchases of infant, convertible, combination and boosters seats from our premier sponsors above.
Shop travel systems, strollers and baby gear from Britax, Chicco, Clek, Combi, Evenflo, First Years, Graco, Maxi-Cosi, Nuna, Safety 1st, Diono & more! ©2001-2022 Carseat Media LLC

Top