Booster better then a 5pt. harness?

CRS

Senior Community Member
I am not wanting to start an "argument" lol, but I am just wondering if anyone has ever heard about a booster seat being better then a 5 pt. harness, for children that can fit in boosters properly of course. Now, this is going to be a weird concept for some especially because I know almost everyone here is very passionate about extended harnessing..

But, I have heard, (and I'm not saying that this is right, nor am I saying it is wrong). That in a frontal impact it is better for a child who can fit in a booster seat with an adult belt, to use one - then it would for them to be in a 5 pt. harnessed seat. Now, ok, hands down in a roll over or side impact you'd want to be in a 5 pt. harness. But as I said, I've heard that for a frontal impact - booster seat is best.

See I couldn't understand it myself at first or even think of a reason why it would be better but.. and admittedly it sort of made sense to me.. the theory was that when your torso is completely restrained by a harness, this puts more load/force on to your neck when you are in a frontal crash. Where as, if you are using an adult belt, that helps your head move more in unison with your body, hence there being less load/force on the neck.

I just thought I would put this out there NOT as an excuse to "graduate" to a booster to early, absolutely not. But, to see if anyone else has ever heard of this? It's a European/Swedish concept and with the Swedish history of safety, especially car seat safety, it is definitely interesting.

Oh and... please have an open mind LOL
 
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snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
There's a thread in the main car seat forum about a CDN study that was done on boosters and passenger safety in the back seat. 5pt harness was much safer even with the 6yr old dummy. The boosters did well at keeping the lap belt in position, but they didn't succeed in keeping the shoulder belt in position - some the belt went up towards the neck, some down the shoulder - essentially having the dummy's restrained as if they were in a lap only belt.

The study is quite interesting. And hands down shows 5pt to offer more protection.

edited to add the link: http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=27576
 

scatterbunny

New member
That Canadian study says a lot to me: the shoulderbelt does not stay properly positioned, even in a highback booster, at the height of crash forces.

I've heard this theory before, and we've even discussed it here a few times, complete with comments about racecar drivers and how they now use something to tether the head to minimize neck loads in a crash, and that was "proof" for some that a booster was safer than a harness; but the crash forces experienced by those travelling 200 miles an hour is a heck of a lot different than our normal crash speeds, and there is no real-world or research data I'm aware of showing that a harnessed child over the age of, say, 4, is less safe or at more risk of neck injury. There is, on the other hand, data that shows a booster does not always provide the level of protection it should.

Yeah, I type all of this with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach because we got rid of the Husky in favor of boosters. :(
 

Suzibeck

Active member
I don't know. Maybe with square, head-on collision; but how many accidents are that way? It seems to me that in an offset, frontal, collision the child would be thrown out the side of the shoulder belt.
 

Defrost

Moderator - CPSTI Emeritus
I think it's one of those real-life vs. crash-test issues. In real life, that shoulder belt isn't doing any good if it doesn't stay on the shoulder, yk? Crash-test dummies don't act like children. They don't tuck the belt behind them, or under their arm, or bend over to pick up a toy, or lean completely sideways just to see how the world looks from that perspective, or.... you get my point.

Using the 86Y harness with my 9-year-old has completely sold me on harnesses over boosters only. I can see both my seat-belted 13 yo and my 86Y + boostered 9 yo in my rear view mirror (with a tiny little window of the road behind me LOL) and I watch them. They move around, it's just what kids do. I'm not talking about "immaturity" issues, I'm talking about normal moving around just like adults do while driving. They lean on their armrests, they crane their necks to see what the kid next to them is reading, they peek out the window to watch the clouds, etc. My kids are really good about proper positioning - none of the things I just listed pull the seat belt out when my 13 yo does them, but they could affect whether or not his shoulder slips out from behind the belt in a wreck. Here's a pic I took a few weeks ago to illustrate my point:
IMG_1062.jpg


But when my 9-year-old does the same things, the harness moves with him. He's not going to slip out from behind it, he's not going to tuck it under his arm. (Sorry, no pics of that yet.) Anyway, it's been really interesting to compare.
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
Ok, so consider... 5 pt harnesses are safe for even younger babies when top tethered, right? (According to data injury in countries where turning early and top tethering are common). Is there any rational evidence that they become less protective as the child grows and their head become proportionately smaller? Maybe when you go straight by the numbers, a booster is better (NHTSA compliance data...the 6 yo dummy has lower HIC than the 3 yo harnessed in the same seat), but does that really translate to more or less injury IRL?
But... check out the seats with the laptop-like restraint...like the Kiddy Life Pro and the Recaro child cushion thing, or the old Britax Prince in EU... those keep the body back but allow the shoulders to move forward with the neck...maybe THAT's the best for a FF child? (Kiddy Life Pro had some good arguments to that effect when I used to peruse their pages...I don't have time to google it now...).
Maybe this is a question that can't be answered to our satisfaction until HWH seats have been on the market another decade and then we can get a good comparison with the Swedish injury data?
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
And more pondering... maybe the energy management devices (rip stitch tethers on Britax, Safestop on Radian) are a nod to the reality that neck forces ARE extreme on FF harnessed kids?
 

Yoshi

New member
And more pondering... maybe the energy management devices (rip stitch tethers on Britax, Safestop on Radian) are a nod to the reality that neck forces ARE extreme on FF harnessed kids?

:yeahthat:
I always wondered about this as the Swedish turn their RF kids and put them into boosters immediately, arguing that heads need to move along with the spines. Is that why the Safe Stops are removed at 40 lbs then- is it because their heads are proportionately smaller than they were at 20 or 30 lbs?
 

joolsplus3

Admin - CPS Technician
:yeahthat:
I always wondered about this as the Swedish turn their RF kids and put them into boosters immediately, arguing that heads need to move along with the spines. Is that why the Safe Stops are removed at 40 lbs then- is it because their heads are proportionately smaller than they were at 20 or 30 lbs?
I think it has more to do with head excursion numbers and child weight than proportionality... but maybe they factored that in? (hard to know, a 40 pound 2 yo is built different from a 40 pound 7 yo... so :confused:)
 

snowbird25ca

Moderator - CPST Instructor
Is that why the Safe Stops are removed at 40 lbs then- is it because their heads are proportionately smaller than they were at 20 or 30 lbs?

I think it's because once kids get past a certain weight, the safestop stretches to a point where head excursion values become higher than allowed. (Remember how much the safestop stretches is related to the force - heavier kid = more force put on the harness straps = safestop stretches further compared to a lighter child.
 

soygurl

Active member
... and there is no real-world or research data I'm aware of showing that a harnessed child over the age of, say, 4, is less safe or at more risk of neck injury. There is, on the other hand, data that shows a booster does not always provide the level of protection it should.
I'm guessing the have research data in Sweden on that!

:yeahthat:
I always wondered about this as the Swedish turn their RF kids and put them into boosters immediately, arguing that heads need to move along with the spines.

That's the context where I've head about boosters being safer... Because of what they do in Sweden. And honestly, that is what makes it sound convincing to me... if they care enough about CPS to keeps kids RF for longer than any other country, why would they totally drop the ball on safety after RF is outgrown?
 

twokidstwodogs

New member
I'm guessing the have research data in Sweden on that!



That's the context where I've head about boosters being safer... Because of what they do in Sweden. And honestly, that is what makes it sound convincing to me... if they care enough about CPS to keeps kids RF for longer than any other country, why would they totally drop the ball on safety after RF is outgrown?


It was the Swedish practice that made me feel comfortable about putting DD into a HB booster rather than getting a Regent for her. I just couldn't find any data either way, since so few older kids are in HWH seats, and I figured that those Swedes must have a reason for what they're doing.

I haven't yet digested the Canadian study, but it's really interesting (and disturbing). I just wish Britax would test the PW against the Regent with a six year-old dummy. Wouldn't that be useful?
 

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